Paid Members BomberPat Posted January 12 Paid Members Share Posted January 12 Just now, Loki said: I've been reading David Shoemaker's "Squared Circle" history of wrestling, and I never realised that the Goldust character, as well as being a dig at Dusty Rhodes, was also a reference to the Goldust Trio promoters that ran New York area in the 20s and 30s. One of those trio was Toots Mondt who ended up working for WWWF until his death in 76, so Vince knew and worked with Toots. Toots Mondt also basically invented a lot of the basics of modern pro wrestling - bodyslams, lock ups and so on. Fascinating chap. Doing the Mick Foley gimmick and plugging my book, and trying not to give away too much of the chapter that deals with this stuff, but the Gold Dust Trio are kind of a fiction, especially Toots' prominence within it - though Mondt went on to be hugely influential and important later on. Most of the story of the "Gold Dust Trio" stems from a 1937 book by Marcus Griffin called Fall Guys: The Barnums Of Bounce, that's probably the first book-length exposé of wrestling's inner workings, as well as a potted history of American wrestling up to that point. The problem is, a lot of it is bollocks - I've never found any evidence of the name "Gold Dust Trio" being used prior to this book, a lot of their dates and descriptions of matches, and even quoted newspaper headlines are wrong, and a lot of it is an exercise in talking up Toots Mondt at the expense of Billy Sandow and especially Jim Londos and his allies. That all makes a lot of sense when you consider that a) Billy Sandow and his brothers were likely far more significant in a lot of the innovations and successes credited to Mondt, b) Jim Londos was too big a star for Mondt to control and a much bigger draw than Mondt's main attraction Ed Lewis, and c) Marcus Griffin was the brother of the guy who founded the National Enquirer, and worked in Toots Mondt's office. There's some important history in there, and it's a fun historical artefact in its own right, but it's less an accurate historical retelling as much as it's an extended exercise in continuing all of Mondt's grudges and grievances. Mondt is credited a lot with things like introducing time limits, which predate his involvement in wrestling entirely, and a lot of other promoters - chiefly Jack Curley in New York - were already trying to modernise wrestling and make it more exciting before the Gold Dust Trio came along. That said, I do think that it's likely that while Toots Mondt brought a lot of more physical innovations to wrestling - the "International" sequence (if you don't know the name, you've seen it a thousand times - headlock, push off the ropes, drop-down, leapfrog, hip toss) is something I'd put money on dating back to Mondt's work. Before pro-wrestling, he had worked as a clown, a tumbler and acrobat, and a carnival wrestler, and I think a lot of the kind of wrestling that developed around the '30s probably owed a lot to the influence of acrobatics and clowning that Mondt brought to the table - though Jim Londos also had a circus and acrobatics background himself, so it's another that's harder to pin on one guy. I'd definitely be quicker to credit him with that kind of thing, and of establishing the pace and ebb and flow of wrestling matches, than I would with a lot of other things the "Gold Dust Trio" get credited with. Later on, he was a major part of Capitol Wrestling before it became the WWF, and a big part of how they managed to negotiate an exit from the NWA without losing access to NWA talent. There were wrestlers in the WWWF in the '60s and early '70s who believed Mondt was the real brains behind the operation and Vince McMahon Sr. was only a figurehead, put in place because Mondt had signed the Anti-Trust deal with the FBI on behalf of the NWA, so if they were caught up doing anything to break that agreement (which they were), they needed somebody who hadn't been a signatory in charge, and that's where Vince came in. Mondt was eventually done in by a combination of not being able to adapt to TV, massive gambling debts, and becoming a bit of a liability in general, but in a lot of ways you don't have modern wrestling without him, even if he tried to take credit for a thousand more things than what he actually achieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 You should Foley a bit more @BomberPat because I had no idea you'd written/are writing a book, and I'd certainly like to read it, if you're comfortable outing yourself on a public forum. Have you read Shoemaker's? I'm enjoying it but I get the feeling he's a bit of a smark as there's a lot of subtle disparagement of Hogan, WWF and McMahon style wrestling generally, even though about 50% of his book is about their product Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted January 12 Paid Members Share Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, Loki said: You should Foley a bit more @BomberPat because I had no idea you'd written/are writing a book, and I'd certainly like to read it, if you're comfortable outing yourself on a public forum. Have you read Shoemaker's? I'm enjoying it but I get the feeling he's a bit of a smark as there's a lot of subtle disparagement of Hogan, WWF and McMahon style wrestling generally, even though about 50% of his book is about their product Absolutely happy to plug it here - I've already posted it in Classified, and the Wrestling Books thread: https://amzn.eu/d/0wZEOEE I'm pretty sure I have read David Shoemaker's book, though honestly I've read so many wrestling histories now that a lot of them tend to blur together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 TIL that Zack Sabre Jr still has the best move names in the sport. From the man that brought you the Tesco Meal Deal, I learn today that one of his finishes is called the Clarky Cat. If you know, you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 12 minutes ago, air_raid said: TIL that Zack Sabre Jr still has the best move names in the sport. From the man that brought you the Tesco Meal Deal, I learn today that one of his finishes is called the Clarky Cat. If you know, you know. He also has the Orienteering With Napalm Death, Barry From Eastenders, Hypernormalisation, and the South Mimms Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 22 Author Paid Members Share Posted January 22 I remember, back when he was still quite young with NWA Hammerlock and still doing the high-flying stuff, his finisher was essentially an Acid Drop/Dudley Dog-style Killswitch/Unprettier, which he called the Supa Zack-a-Whacka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 There aren't enough Jimmy gifs for all these. The absolute state of those names ffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Surf Digby Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, BomberPat said: He also has the Orienteering With Napalm Death, Barry From Eastenders, Hypernormalisation, and the South Mimms Service. Did he lose a round of UKFF Finisher Roulette? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordsfromlee Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 He has a finisher named Hurrah! Another Year, Surely This One Will Be Better Than the Last; The Inexorable March of Progress Will Lead Us All to Happiness. Any finisher named after a Youthmovie Soundtrack Strategies EP (or any obscure post-rock records from the early 00s) is fine by me. Right in my wheelhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Cremation Lily is probably his most understated move name, probably the only move ever named after a British harsh noise artist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 If you’ll indulge me straying from ZSJ, I was always partial to Champagne SuperKneebar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 I never knew this happened. The face off from this camera angle looks impressive. Is there any more footage of this available? The Rock, although cheesy, plays his role about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members mim731 Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 7 hours ago, BomberPat said: He also has the Orienteering With Napalm Death, Barry From Eastenders, Hypernormalisation, and the South Mimms Service. 1 hour ago, wordsfromlee said: He has a finisher named Hurrah! Another Year, Surely This One Will Be Better Than the Last; The Inexorable March of Progress Will Lead Us All to Happiness. Any finisher named after a Youthmovie Soundtrack Strategies EP (or any obscure post-rock records from the early 00s) is fine by me. Right in my wheelhouse. 1 hour ago, air_raid said: If you’ll indulge me straying from ZSJ, I was always partial to Champagne SuperKneebar. It always amazes me ZSJ can remember all these complicated names for his moves, yet still seemingly can't remember his Twitter password...for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 TIL that Edge has blocked me on Twitter. I have never mentioned him in any tweet ever nor tagged him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 37 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said: TIL that Edge has blocked me on Twitter. I have never mentioned him in any tweet ever nor tagged him. Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels and Sheamus for me. Don't think I've ever tweeted or mentioned them either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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