Minor Annoyances (Vol 2)

[Carbomb]

To further vex the debate, what's the view of Gil Scott-Heron? I've heard him described as "the father of rap", but other people have told me that he "wasn't really a rapper, more a poet who paved the way" - a proto-rapper, I guess. But there seems to be some argument on that point too.

[Keith Houchen]

The only real example of hip hop as opposed to rap in a mainstream song is the middle eight of Shake It Off by Taylor Swift. Not only does it have a rap delivery, it also has a sick beat. 
 

To me, hip hop is an ensemble which usually features a rapper or two and isn’t just about music. I’m not saying one is better than the other, I just see the distinction. It’s like a rock band being different from a guitarist, or a singer with a karaoke track. 

[SuperBacon]

2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

To further vex the debate, what's the view of Gil Scott-Heron? I've heard him described as "the father of rap", but other people have told me that he "wasn't really a rapper, more a poet who paved the way" - a proto-rapper, I guess. But there seems to be some argument on that point too.

How far back do you want to go? Then scatting was rapping. For me anyway.

@Loki so you're the one buying all those Amon Tobin albums

[Loki]

24 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

How far back do you want to go? Then scatting was rapping. For me anyway.

@Loki so you're the one buying all those Amon Tobin albums

Yeah, Scott-Heron. may not have thought of it as rap, but his style helped to create rap so I can totally see him being described as a rapper.

Thing is, I don't think HE would describe himself as a rapper.  Spoken word poetry was a big thing in the 60s and 70s and it bled over into music.  Here's a track from 77 - 
 

That's rap to you and me, but they saw themselves as singers/poets rather than early rappers.

Edit: might as well stick a link to a mix with this track in!

https://www.mixcloud.com/mhangus/jazzmaster-rare-volume-3/

 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Loki

[SuperBacon]

Time to bust out the 'Gil Scott Heron was the voice that said "You know when you've been tangoed" on the adverts' fact.

[Keith Houchen]

2 minutes ago, Loki said:

Yeah, Scott-Heron. may not have thought of it as rap, but his style helped to create rap so I can totally see him being described as a rapper.

And to make Chest happy by mentioning his favourite topic, Gil’s dad was the first black footballer to play for Celtic!

[SuperBacon]

Just now, Keith Houchen said:

And to make Chest happy by mentioning his favourite topic, Gil’s dad was the first black footballer to play for Celtic!

The Rhevolution Whill Nhot Bhe Thelevised? 

[Chest Rockwell]

56 minutes ago, Loki said:

Instrumental hiphop isn't rap because there's nobody rapping on it.  Rap is the vocal delivery.  You can rap over Mozart and it won't be hiphop.  And rap as a style predates hiphop.

This isn't some weird me thing, I'm fairly sure this is the usual musical definition.


Edit: @SuperBaconas per your example, Kendrick Lamarr is a rapper.  So anything he raps over is rap music, and I'd imagine 99% of that is hiphop.  But him rapping over it isn't what makes it hiphop.  Using the terms interchangeably is fine given how much overlap there is.  I personally am into the beats and the rapping is a nice element of some hiphop that I listen to, but it's not the main reason I listen.  I'm not listening and critiquing the rapper's flow, put it that way.  Generally I buy and play instrumental hiphop for preference.

See I'm fine with this. But there's a difference between using 'rap music' and 'hip hop music' interchangeably, and talking about rapping as a verb. Those are separate things getting muddled and conflated in this conversation.

All the stuff about hip hop culture separately from the music is... Well I don't think it is really particularly relevant in this day and age. Yeah there is a different culture to independent rap music, but you wouldn't call a local indie rock band a different genre from radio rock so it's a bit of a silly arbitrary divide to try to make for rap music.

Are we going to score them on how well they represent the five elements?

Edited March 10, 2023 by Chest Rockwell

[Keith Houchen]

1 minute ago, Chest Rockwell said:

but you wouldn't call a local indie rock band a different genre from radio rock so it's a bit of a silly arbitrary divide to try to make for rap music.

No, but to go back to punk snobbery, there’s a difference between a Green Day and a Fugazi. They both release(d) records and tour(ed), but one had a holistic DIY approach
 

Personally I don’t care if people use the terms interchangeably, I’m saying there’s a difference in that one is a culture and one is a component of that culture. You’re right about the modern age though, it’s great that artists can produce stuff on a phone and not need expensive equipment to get started. 

[Chest Rockwell]

Punk snobbery is dumb as shit though so we shouldn't be using that as a good precedent for anything.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Chest Rockwell

[Keith Houchen]

3 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Punk snobbery is dumb as shit though so we shouldn't be using that as a good precedent for anything.

I dunno, it’s a wonderful barometer of whose opinions to ignore. Punker Than Thou was always a favourite of mine. One of my proudest moments at a gig I done was DJ before the live set and seeing the look of disgust on the faces of the PTT’s as I played drum and bass. 
 

Or is it Jungle?  

[SuperBacon]

13 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

drum and bass. 
 

Or is it Jungle?  

Well which one was it?

[wordsfromlee]

I've always known hip hop as being an umbrella term for the scene in general. Rapping, producing, graffiti, breaking, all that is part of hip hop.

All rap is hip hop. Not all hip hop is rap. Endtroducing isn't rap. Donuts isn't rap. But they're both hip hop.

Just like how emo encompasses the fashion, aesthetics, and the outlook on life as well as the music. Same with how heavy metal is more than just the music.

[Tommy!]

1 hour ago, wordsfromlee said:

Same with how heavy metal is more than just the music

Too right, it's about greasy hair and body odor. 

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Tommy!

[air_raid]

Just to revisit this one...

On 3/10/2023 at 3:08 PM, Loki said:

it's mainly you - you've got old!

While I disagree with the the principle point - I was a teenager when Bon Jovi released It's My Life and I though the on-the-nose hijacking of Sinatra's work was shite even then - there is a big punch in the face in this respect to music - my dad warned me it would happen as a kid. When I was 18 I'd go to a "retro" night at uni where some of the hits played gave me loads of nostalgia despite being not much more than 10 years old, whereas today songs that were charting 20 years ago simply don't strike me as "retro" - it just doesn't feel that long ago. Because I got old.

On 3/10/2023 at 1:14 PM, SuperBacon said:

How is it any different to a film or TV show making a reference to another film or TV show? It's just a pop culture reference isn't it? 

I suppose the difference is how much impact the "borrowing" has on the overall work. When Spider-Man makes a comment about Empire Strikes Back or Alien in the middle of a near 3 hour Marvel film, it's virtually forgotten by the end of the film, and certainly Infinity War doesn't become "that film where Spider-Man talks about Alien" in the mind. With music, the lyrics ARE the song, so (example) All Summer Long is "Kid Rock bastardizes Sweet Home Alabama" from start to finish.