The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[Chili]

Never that arsed about Seth Rollins as a wrestler, but I just hate his voice. Not even that cackle, just his voice generally is absolutely awful to listen to so I can't be doing with that. He also in any pics I see of him, appear to dress like an absolute cunt that would ride a penny-farthing in 2025, so I can't be doing with that either.

[The Gaffer]

I love a good Rollins pile on, so I'll also submit that whilst I don't expect him to do it and it wouldn't work, people who say 'freaking' instead of 'fucking' are rubbish. 

[Matthew]

7 hours ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

But I don't think I've ever seen a match where it felt like he was the lead

Admittedly a fair few years ago at this point, but surely his handholding of a very green Dom Mysterio, who’d only had a handful of matches at this point is him leading, to what was a match that was alot better to watch than it had any credit being, from someone of Seth’s apparent flaws, and a very inexperienced Dom?

[RedTwoster]

8 hours ago, Supremo said:

Even as someone cursed with a taste for WWE’s product, it’s more about the characters and the bullshit than the matches. I’m happy with AEW being where the best wrestle, whereas WWE is the revolutionary force in Sports Entertainment.

AEW is just as much about the characters and bullshit as WWE, I’d argue - Toni Storm, Mark Briscoe, Eddie Kingston, Harley Cameron, MJF, Hangman Page, Orange and Swerve to name a few - they’re all distinct characters and the company is at its best when those characters are involved in great stories which, fortunately, they are at the moment. Both companies attempt to do a lot of the same things, just in different ways. 

When it comes to wrestling, I think both companies value in ring talent - or at least, in WWE’s case - they value it more than they did in the McMahon era. But AEW has, indisputably I’d say, a much more thrilling in-ring style and a stronger roster of in-ring performers. WWE has managed to build up its women’s division well, but the men’s roster is ageing out, with a fairly weak batch of up-and-comers, partly because AEW has been shrewd about snapping up a lot of the better prospects and indie stars. I think WWE is having to make do, in a lot of cases - and there are a lot of wrestlers getting pushed right now who wouldn’t be if AEW didn’t exist, and WWE had access to some of the wrestlers currently high up on the AEW roster.

[LaGoosh]

17 minutes ago, RedTwoster said:

. I think WWE is having to make do, in a lot of cases - and there are a lot of wrestlers getting pushed right now who wouldn’t be if AEW didn’t exist, and WWE had access to some of the wrestlers currently high up on the AEW roster.

Seems like the Performance Center has been an absolute bust at creating any genuine top of the card performers for WWE on the men's side of things. Pretty much all their top male stars are from the OVW/FCW days. It's been a big success for their women's division - not clear why they're struggling with the blokes.

[RedTwoster]

6 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Seems like the Performance Center has been an absolute bust at creating any genuine top of the card performers for WWE on the men's side of things. Pretty much all their top male stars are from the OVW/FCW days. It's been a big success for their women's division - not clear why they're struggling with the blokes.

I think they benefitted from the fact AEW did a really bad job with its women for most of its history. You only need to look at their women’s world champions from the early years - Riho, Nyla Rose, Britt Baker, Shida, Thunder Rosa - not one of them is a top star in AEW’s current women’s division, and even back in the early years, only Baker could really be considered a success story.

If you were an aspiring female wrestler, or making waves on the independent scene, WWE would have seemed like the safer bet. Providing they don’t utterly arse up the momentum they’ve built, that should change (although Athena, Billie Starkz and Deonna disappearing does concern me) - but I think they’re still paying the price for not making an effort with their female roster sooner. 

[DavidB6937]

49 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Seems like the Performance Center has been an absolute bust at creating any genuine top of the card performers for WWE on the men's side of things. Pretty much all their top male stars are from the OVW/FCW days. It's been a big success for their women's division - not clear why they're struggling with the blokes.

I'm not sure how much of it is an issue with the PC and how much is in the translation and the treatment of call ups. It's a tough one and very much a "what if?" scenario so can't really be proven as such.

If Oba Femi fails then I give up.

[LaGoosh]

12 hours ago, DavidB6937 said:

I'm not sure how much of it is an issue with the PC and how much is in the translation and the treatment of call ups. It's a tough one and very much a "what if?" scenario so can't really be proven as such.

Do you think there's been any call ups on the men's side that could have been top stars but were fucked over by the booking?

I just think it's notable that the Performance Centre, specifically built to create the top stars of tomorrow from the ground up, hasn't actually created a single male one from the ground up.  I suppose Bron Breakker might potentially be the first? At what point do they need to actually take a look at what they're doing at the PC and ask what they're doing down there and why it's been such slim pickings for so long. 

[tiger_rick]

12 hours ago, DavidB6937 said:

I'm not sure how much of it is an issue with the PC

I'd say about 99%. I think the biggest problem is having a "performance centre" to try and make pro-wrestlers. I get why the needed a development environment, it was the result of them systematically killing the North American industry, but the entire concept is flawed. The WCW Power Plant should have been the lesson to learn from. They already had a somewhat successful formula of running their own mini-territories with a crowd and leadership that was quite old school and taught the realities of the industry. Why on earth they ever thought they could do it better in a big warehouse is beyond me. 

The secondary issue is what they teach and what they create in NXT. NXT has had it's moments as a sort of indy fed. When it was stocked with the top indy talent doing their thing, being put in front of eager crowds and working a style they had learned, it was pretty good as the only readily available alternative. Almost all of the really good talents that have come through in the last 8/9 years have been those who've worked top indies, Japan or AEW. Pretty much the only 100% PC success I can think of is Dom Mysterio , with Montez Ford another possibility if they ever afford him the level of patience and focus that Dom has been given for many years now.

The last bit is what they do in the PC. As a finishing school where talented people can develop an act and ring work that translates to their main shows, it's an absolute flop. You can probably count on one hand the number of people who have brought up an established character and had real success with it. The Wyatt family, Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens are about it aren't they? Unless I'm really forgetting something. Some of their biggest successes have been people who've completely skipped their PC/NXT environment altogether, like AJ, Fatu and obviously Cody & Punk.

I'm really not sure it's worth their money. 

Edited May 22, 2025 by tiger_rick

[LaGoosh]

12 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

Fatu

I think it's really noticeable how real and authentic Fatu feels in comparison to the rest of the roster and how quickly it's gotten him over. I don't think it's a coincidence that he also skipped NXT. 

But worth noting that this issue seems to be on the men's side only and they've created loads of top female talent at the PC. It's strange that it's so one sided.

Edited May 22, 2025 by LaGoosh

[BomberPat]

1 hour ago, tiger_rick said:

Pretty much the only 100% PC success I can think of is Dom Mysterio

I'd be hard-pressed to even call Dom a Performance Center success - he had been training under Jay Lethal and then Lance Storm for a few years before the PC. There's probably a stronger case for the Performance Center as that kind of "finishing school" for wrestlers with existing training and experience than as somewhere to build talent from the ground up. 

One of the most damning things about the Performance Center for me is that they when they need a high profile star to be trained up, the Performance Center isn't enough - Ronda Rousey and Bad Bunny trained at Brian Kendrick's school, Logan Paul trained with Shane Helms, The Rock worked with Joe Hennig and Curt Hawkins and then with Gallus for his two returns, rather than at the PC. 

[The Dart]

Bianca Belair I would say is their biggest 100% Performance Center success, as in, didn't start in FCW OR the indies. 
Bron Breakker probably for the men, but there's really barely any men on the main roster who didn't come from either the indies or AEW/TNA etc first.
Montez Ford and Otis are the only others I can think of, and Dominik Mysterio, but he skipped NXT although he probably trained at the PC. 

 

Quote

One of the most damning things about the Performance Center for me is that they when they need a high profile star to be trained up, the Performance Center isn't enough - Ronda Rousey and Bad Bunny trained at Brian Kendrick's school, Logan Paul trained with Shane Helms, The Rock worked with Joe Hennig and Curt Hawkins and then with Gallus for his two returns, rather than at the PC. 

I would have thought this was more to do with keeping their upcoming returns/debuts a secret as much as anything else.

I think The Rock doing drills with Jasper Troy and Kale Dixon might give something away.

Edited May 22, 2025 by The Dart

[LaGoosh]

17 minutes ago, The Dart said:

I would have thought this was more to do with keeping their upcoming returns/debuts a secret as much as anything else.

Some of it is probably location. Rousey lives in LA so probably wanted to train close to home and Kendrick's school is in LA. The Rock had a ring set up at his house so WWE sent two wrestlers to him rather than him come to them. Additionally it means they can train one on one all day without anyone else there butting in, leaking anything or getting in the way.

[Supremo]

It’s all a matter of perspective.

If the aim of the Performance Center is to create a new crop of pro-wrestling superstars, it’s an abject failure. But if its primary objective is the complete and utter destruction of female trainee’s knees, then it’s a roaring success.

Bianca Belair is the only true success story I can think of, so Lord knows what the ratio is of torn ACLs to Superstars created. Probably something like 750 to 1.

Adam Rose was good though.

[RedTwoster]

6 hours ago, LaGoosh said:

Do you think there's been any call ups on the men's side that could have been top stars but were fucked over by the booking?

I don’t know about top stars, but there are certainly some who could have been bigger stars. Vince McMahon showed an odd tendency to tank NXT call-ups rather quickly.

Bo Dallas and his ‘bolieve’ character was really fun, and it was never allowed to go anywhere. His performances since returning have been excellent, but I still feel like they don’t know exactly what to do with him.

Steve Maclin was never given a fair shake in WWE, but he’s really proven his value in TNA. I’m a bit surprised that they haven’t tried to bring him back. 

Even though WWE doesn’t give much of a shit about tag wrestling, The Revival/FTR were woefully underutilised on the main roster. They’ve proven their value in AEW.

You could argue that Big E wasn’t really used to his full potential - he had a great run, but could have and should have been a top star for longer.

I’d also argue that Erik Rowan was very underutilised. In both WWE and AEW he’s shown that he can be a very effective big man, and recently he’s shown he can be really good on the mic too. He’d always been viewed as the weak link in the Wyatt family, but he’s much better than he’s often given credit for.

Neville/PAC and Ricochet - have both proven that they had far more value than the booking allowed them to show. While PAC had a fun run as cruiserweight champion, he was never allowed to progress beyond that. Ricochet, on the other hand, was used so badly people were pretty disappointed in AEW for signing him in the first place - but look at him now.

By the same token, Swerve Strickland and Hit Row in general could have been big for the company. Granted, some of the people I’m highlighting are not strictly performance centre productions, but they are call-ups who were part of the NXT ecosystem that could have been stars for the company, yet were not.

Edited May 22, 2025 by RedTwoster