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PowerButchi

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3 hours ago, DavidB6937 said:

Tag specialist fair enough but what's he actually done as a singles star that makes winning the IC title a retread or anything?

He's done nothing of note at IC level although he did hold the title for nearly 5 months. The challengers he saw off included Damian Sandow, Jack Swagger and Curtis Axel. 

The only difference this time around is that they've taken the time to actually differentiate Big E from The New Day and the tag team scene. The last time they were always about, always on the same brand and always in the same promos/vignettes. They have done virtually nothing else to elevate him. In terms of character development, a new entrance theme? Big wowee. Makes no difference. Reigns has at least tweaked his look, mannerisms etc but Big E hasn't. I mentioned a few pages ago that I didn't buy him as a main event player and that still stands.

Unless he evolves his character a bit and is involved in focussed, logical feuds then he's just another belt warmer. Having the likes of Owens, Cesaro, Daniel Bryan, Jey Uso challenge him will help. Tying the belt into a feud with USO, given that he's linked to Roman Reigns and the big strap, would do wonders in terms of building him up to be a credible main event wrestler. With Drew there was a definite shift in booking, how he carried himself, how he was in the ring and it all came together in one main event level character.

None of the above will happen and it will just be another missed opportunity. 

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18 minutes ago, Suplex Sinner said:

None of the above will happen and it will just be another missed opportunity. 

On your point regarding Reigns, it's a bit different having him turn heel to Big E being forced away from the New Day. I wouldn't expect a big change up in character from him. It's more believable that he is what he is but just adds a little focus and intensity when he needs to. There's no real need for him to completely change character especially when he's so charismatic and carries it off well.

But more than anything it's just pretty depressing how many people doom all these things to fail before they even happen in WWE these days. And while I can't argue that Vince doesn't deserve such cynicism from a fan base that has grown tired of being let down, I do miss the days where we could get excited about potential.

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1 hour ago, Suplex Sinner said:

There could be a (weaker) argument made for The Miz during the 2012/13 period but since then it's been booked horrendously

That was a fun run but he'd been the World Champ and headlined WrestleMania a couple of years earlier.

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1 hour ago, DavidB6937 said:

On your point regarding Reigns, it's a bit different having him turn heel to Big E being forced away from the New Day. I wouldn't expect a big change up in character from him. It's more believable that he is what he is but just adds a little focus and intensity when he needs to. There's no real need for him to completely change character especially when he's so charismatic and carries it off well.

But more than anything it's just pretty depressing how many people doom all these things to fail before they even happen in WWE these days. And while I can't argue that Vince doesn't deserve such cynicism from a fan base that has grown tired of being let down, I do miss the days where we could get excited about potential.

I guess I've been conditioned to like bad ass champions then because I can't personally see Big E as he is holding the big strap - as I've said before  Edge, Orton, Cena, Batista, HHH, Daniel Bryan, Drew, The Fiend etc. all have something of an edge in as much as they're not "nice" the way Big E is. 

I don't mean to doom it either or rain on anyone's parade. I guess I just can't see it. The names above I could believe could be champion. Anyway, I'll agree to disagree on this one and I'll try not to comment too much on it. I'll see how it plays out and reserve judgement. Hopefully he proves me wrong. 

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11 hours ago, Suplex Sinner said:

I guess I've been conditioned to like bad ass champions then because I can't personally see Big E as he is holding the big strap - as I've said before  Edge, Orton, Cena, Batista, HHH, Daniel Bryan, Drew, The Fiend etc. all have something of an edge in as much as they're not "nice" the way Big E is. 

I don't mean to doom it either or rain on anyone's parade. I guess I just can't see it. The names above I could believe could be champion. Anyway, I'll agree to disagree on this one and I'll try not to comment too much on it. I'll see how it plays out and reserve judgement. Hopefully he proves me wrong. 

We all like different things, so I do get it. I see Big E more in the mould of The Rock in terms of physicality but also charisma. I'm not saying he's at that level, and he couldn't do with some tweaking along the way, but in terms of being an all-rounder and that energy.. I'd just hate to see him lose everything that has got him this far. Especially when he's so capable in many ways. I feel like WWE needs a guy like that. We get a lot of guys coming through the system that are pretty cookie-cutter without real personalities, but Big E just has something that makes people want to watch him and get behind him. It is a fine line though and they'll need to find the right balance to maintain that while pushing him up the card.

5 hours ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said:

Feels like this is a worthy share from Talking Smack. A cracking understated promo from Daniel Bryan that is pointing us towards the inevitable Bryan vs Reigns match (maybe for Mania?)

I love Talking Smack. Having Heyman on there has been great. Everyone's just so relaxed and natural and he gets the best out of them.

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11 hours ago, Suplex Sinner said:

I guess I've been conditioned to like bad ass champions then because I can't personally see Big E as he is holding the big strap - as I've said before  Edge, Orton, Cena, Batista, HHH, Daniel Bryan, Drew, The Fiend etc. all have something of an edge in as much as they're not "nice" the way Big E is.

Drew is the absolute epitome of a blue-eye. Certainly in the last year. Daniel Bryan was too. There was nothing remotely bad-ass about him when everyone was desperate for him to be the guy.

I get it though. Everyone likes a bad-ass Champion. Like in the early 2000s when everyone thought every Champion had to be Ric Flair, we've spent the latter Cena years complaining that everyone should be Steve Austin. You can't have everyone be a bad-ass. Wrestling is about variety (and not WWE's "We're not really wrestling" spin on it). Someone like E with his size, look and agility but with his incredible outlook and promo style is the perfect antithesis of Roman Reigns at the moment. He's the guy they're constantly trying to turn people like Brawn Strowman into.

This is an interesting argument though. Like the point earlier about him never being anything above a tag team guy. That's the issue with how they book. If you're a midcard champ or a tag team guy, you're just another guy. There's no semblance that you're special. That's not a knock on them in a modern concept, it's never been any different. We look at Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels and romanticise it but it wasn't different then. There was no grand plan for either to be the guy. They probably had them pegged as future singles wrestlers, though it took them three goes to commit to Bret as one, but they weren't going to be anything beyond that. They just connected. In the same way Bryan would, and Kofi did to a lesser extent. People watching wanted more for them. That was it, that was their entire lot. There's so much reliance on that in WWE. That's why when they see a guy they want to move up, they have to work so fucking hard to shift the perception, because they don't build in the layers. A big exception was The Shield. They did an incredible job with them. They probably don't get enough credit for that. They started on day one in a main event angle and were never not pegged as being incredibly special.Everything they did felt upper level and it was just a matter of time before they broke out. Even as a tag or six-man, they felt like it does when two big stars hold the tag titles. They've never done that with New Day. They've always just been the Freebird group, in perception.

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1 hour ago, tiger_rick said:

This is an interesting argument though. Like the point earlier about him never being anything above a tag team guy. That's the issue with how they book. If you're a midcard champ or a tag team guy, you're just another guy. There's no semblance that you're special. That's not a knock on them in a modern concept, it's never been any different. We look at Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels and romanticise it but it wasn't different then. There was no grand plan for either to be the guy. They probably had them pegged as future singles wrestlers, though it took them three goes to commit to Bret as one, but they weren't going to be anything beyond that. They just connected. In the same way Bryan would, and Kofi did to a lesser extent. People watching wanted more for them. That was it, that was their entire lot. There's so much reliance on that in WWE. That's why when they see a guy they want to move up, they have to work so fucking hard to shift the perception, because they don't build in the layers. A big exception was The Shield. They did an incredible job with them. They probably don't get enough credit for that. They started on day one in a main event angle and were never not pegged as being incredibly special.Everything they did felt upper level and it was just a matter of time before they broke out. Even as a tag or six-man, they felt like it does when two big stars hold the tag titles. They've never done that with New Day. They've always just been the Freebird group, in perception.

Are there many cases like The Shield where an actual team has come in and been presented like that? Not just in WWE but any company?

I do wonder if a general audience perception is that if you're in a tag team then that means you're not good enough to be out there on your own. And there's nothing wrong with being a great tag team - although that's a very limited thing in WWE especially - but it's a very difficult thing to break free from. When I look at teams like FTR for example, I have absolutely no desire to see either man in a singles run. They very much feel like equals. Sometimes teams are more unbalanced - I'll use Street Profits as an example, although it's probably a bit harsh on Dawkins because he has worked hard to get where he is, but Montez Ford is just someone you look at and think it'll be criminal if he's not a singles star one day. Even if you look at Xavier Woods - I think he's probably the one that's benefitted from The New Day more than anyone because he probably would've struggled alone in WWE.

I guess as you say, a lot of our opinions are based on hindsight. While some careers look like they had natural progression when you look back at them, it probably wasn't that straight forward and planned as it actually happened. I am a big fan of the way Bret and Shawn developed through the ranks and it really did help me to appreciate them more over the years, but I'm sure various things happened that just made it happen rather than this big mapped out career for either of them.

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Just now, tiger_rick said:

What fans?

This is a very good point. I’m so surprised WWE haven’t taken the months of no audiences as an opportunity to push people exactly the way they want to without any fear of crowds turning on them, because there are no crowds.

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2 hours ago, tiger_rick said:

Drew is the absolute epitome of a blue-eye. Certainly in the last year. Daniel Bryan was too. There was nothing remotely bad-ass about him when everyone was desperate for him to be the guy.

I get it though. Everyone likes a bad-ass Champion. Like in the early 2000s when everyone thought every Champion had to be Ric Flair, we've spent the latter Cena years complaining that everyone should be Steve Austin. You can't have everyone be a bad-ass. Wrestling is about variety (and not WWE's "We're not really wrestling" spin on it). Someone like E with his size, look and agility but with his incredible outlook and promo style is the perfect antithesis of Roman Reigns at the moment. He's the guy they're constantly trying to turn people like Brawn Strowman into.

This is an interesting argument though. Like the point earlier about him never being anything above a tag team guy. That's the issue with how they book. If you're a midcard champ or a tag team guy, you're just another guy. There's no semblance that you're special. That's not a knock on them in a modern concept, it's never been any different. We look at Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels and romanticise it but it wasn't different then. There was no grand plan for either to be the guy. They probably had them pegged as future singles wrestlers, though it took them three goes to commit to Bret as one, but they weren't going to be anything beyond that. They just connected. In the same way Bryan would, and Kofi did to a lesser extent. People watching wanted more for them. That was it, that was their entire lot. There's so much reliance on that in WWE. That's why when they see a guy they want to move up, they have to work so fucking hard to shift the perception, because they don't build in the layers. A big exception was The Shield. They did an incredible job with them. They probably don't get enough credit for that. They started on day one in a main event angle and were never not pegged as being incredibly special.Everything they did felt upper level and it was just a matter of time before they broke out. Even as a tag or six-man, they felt like it does when two big stars hold the tag titles. They've never done that with New Day. They've always just been the Freebird group, in perception.

This is a really good post. I suppose it's a chicken and egg situation with regards Drew/Daniel Bryan. Was it their presence and charisma that made them bad ass or was it the booking? I still maintain Drew was badass because he is 1) huge and 2) his arsenal has some really vicious looking moves. Plus there's fan footage from the Royal Rumble where you can hear folk saying "Holy sh*t dude he's huge....he's bigger than Lesnar" which to me is badass in itself. Although he was booked to go up against him the same way he was booked to kill him with a claymore on Raw that massively popped the crowd. 

As you say, the size and charisma of Big E means that he should be in that bracket but for some reason he isn't. I haven't seen him destroy anyone, haven't seen any real fiery promos and as with all fans, we need to have a reason to take him seriously. Winning the US Title for example - why did he win? He didn't come out after the brand split and cut a passionate promo about how although he'll always be a part of The New Day he is going to reach the top of the singles division. He didn't say he's going to work his way up, stating with hunting for the US Title but putting Roman Reigns on notice. That way we have a reason to back him and take him seriously and the seeds are sown for the final destination. You could even have other midcard guys coming out saying he'll have to go through them first. Then there's a solid foundation on which WWE Smackdown champion Big E can be built. AEW does all of this really well.

Bret and Shawn although not instantly "the" guys, still had stories behind their IC title reigns. Again, that was a combination of both of them being super talented and over with the crowd whereas there's no buzz around Big E yet in my opinion. 

Agree re: The Shield. Looked like superstars and were booked like superstars and were taken seriously by everyone. Again relating it back to Big E, I personally don't think he looks like a superstar hence I can't take him seriously. I know I'm in the minority so will wait and see how things pan out for him but I do think it will take a lot of planning and clever booking, particularly in the absence of fans, to get him there. 

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Decided to watch Fridays Smackers after hearing it's been decent the last month or so. I enjoyed it mostly. Kevin Owens is an absolutely cracking babyface, him battering Jey Uso in a quick match made him look the business. Glad him and Reigns is carrying on a little longer. 

Of course they're still building feuds by having the challenger pin the champion in a tag match. Lazy as fuck. Happy to report that Sasha Banks is still the fittest woman in wrestling though. 

After the terrible scripting and over-production, logic is still the biggest issue with this company. Fuck all matters. Sonya Deville returns months after losing a Loser Leaves WWE match and the explanation is 'Sonya has been reinstated.' Why? Why should I care next time they do this stipulaton? 

 

I also decided to watch 205 Live for the first time in years! Who the fuck is Curt Stallion? Poundland Adam Page.

Mansoor has improved loads since I last saw him. 

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1 hour ago, Lorne Malvo said:

Of course they're still building feuds by having the challenger pin the champion in a tag match. Lazy as fuck. Happy to report that Sasha Banks is still the fittest woman in wrestling though. 

After the terrible scripting and over-production, logic is still the biggest issue with this company. Fuck all matters. Sonya Deville returns months after losing a Loser Leaves WWE match and the explanation is 'Sonya has been reinstated.' Why? Why should I care next time they do this stipulaton? 

The Carmella thing isn't so bad in context. They've had a fair back and forth feud. And Banks didn't really lose clean. Mella and Reginald have been trying to get one up on her for weeks now and Sasha has mostly looked strong as a babyface that keeps coming back, plus she did win their TLC match. I don't mind the tag win when it doesn't happen too often.

As for Sonya it was only a tease really and a nice talking point. I'm sure there's more to come there. Plus reading online no one seemed to expect her back so fast so they might have had better intentions initially with that stipulation.

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