Paul Hardcastle's Domestic Football 18/nuh nuh nuh 19

[StrongStyle]

On 1/3/2019 at 4:03 PM, tiger_rick said:

Sky reporting Jermain Defoe is off to Rangers on an 18 month loan (with 2 recall options). That's some signing isn't it? He'll score goals for fun up there.

I should preface this post by stating that I think Defoe will do well at Rangers: but who was the last past-it player from England who went to Scotland  and “scored goals for fun” or “skated it”?

There might be a few examples that I am missing, but I think you go back as far as Robbie Keane or maybe even Craig Bellamy to Celtic (in Bellamy's case, he was arguably in his prime years yet needed to reinvent his career. He went onto be excellent for Man City after this among other things). Any time a veteran who has spent their career in England goes to Scotland for a swan song, there is usually a lot of Talksport-esque disrespect about how they will have a cigar and slippers on - but the following usually happens:

A) They realise the game is not as bad as they thought (we're looking at you, Joey...)
B) They realise that they’re no longer as good as they thought (...and again, Mr. Barton...)
C) They can’t cope without the time on the ball the were afforded in England or the physicality (...still having nightmares?...)
D) Any combination of the above.

Edited January 6, 2019 by StrongStyle

[PunkStep]

24 minutes ago, StrongStyle said:

I should preface this post by stating that I think Defoe will do well at Rangers: but who was the last past-it player from England who went to Scotland  and “scored goals for fun” or “skated it”?

Scott Sinclair, two seasons ago.

[StrongStyle]

3 minutes ago, PunkStep said:

Scott Sinclair, two seasons ago.

I suppose the operative term was "past it". Sinclair was 27 when he arrived at Celtic and did indeed score goals for fun. He has since gone on to show the crippling inconsistency he had elsewhere in England.

[garynysmon]

6 hours ago, PowerButchi said:

Shit loss for Wrexham. 1-0 vs Dover at home, about 4700 there. Poor game and with Salford beating orient we needed the points. But while I was in the Turf after the game (only actual pub in stadium grounds in the UK, and its the oldest international stadium in the world pop pickers) we announced the signing of James Oswell. A 6'2 strong bastard number 9. What we've been missing. 

Wrexham should have signed him years ago when he was playing for Newtown. I have no idea why they don't scour the Welsh Premier regularly.

[Gus Mears]

6 minutes ago, StrongStyle said:

I suppose the operative term was "past it". Sinclair was 27 when he arrived at Celtic and did indeed score goals for fun. He has since gone on to show the crippling inconsistency he had elsewhere in England.

How many players fitting the description which you've put out have there been in the past few years? Outside of Barton, I can't think of that many off the top of my head 

[StrongStyle]

2 minutes ago, Gus Mears said:

How many players fitting the description which you've put out have there been in the past few years? Outside of Barton, I can't think of that many off the top of my head 

Not a great deal, but I was curious to see if we could think of any examples. As a resident of Scotland, I've heard it a number of times that a finished player from down south would scud the Scottish league - I don't think it happens very often, if ever. An example I can certainly remember is James Beattie. Did he even score a goal for Rangers? Freddie Ljungberg as well. 

Roy Keane went directly to Celtic from Man Utd and had a largely forgettable spell. I think the point I'm trying to make is that it's not a turkey shoot up here - especially this season, with other teams stepping up to the plate outside of the Glasgow clubs.

[SuperBacon]

Freddie Ljungberg played for Celtic? Well colour me surprised, I had no idea. And West Ham???? I don’t remember that at all.

Defoe scores wherever he plays. Keeps himself sharp and let’s be honest, he has no game outside of being a striker. He’ll get a hatful. 

[PunkStep]

Freddie was dead when we sent him to West Ham, so I dread to think what state he was in by the time he ended up at Celtic. Too finished even for a league for finished players.

If anyone makes the move across the border and doesn't do well, it's because they can't be arsed. The drop in quality is monumental.

[Keith Houchen]

22 minutes ago, PunkStep said:

The drop in quality is monumental.

The best measure is how things go the other way, such as a player doing well up there will usually end up at a Championship club.  But lets be fair, for a country the size of Scotland and for the population of Scotland, coupled with the money in Scottish football, the standard is pretty consistent with other countries that size.

[StrongStyle]

6 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

The best measure is how things go the other way, such as a player doing well up there will usually end up at a Championship club.  But lets be fair, for a country the size of Scotland and for the population of Scotland, coupled with the money in Scottish football, the standard is pretty consistent with other countries that size.

There are success stories, just like anywhere. The (arguably) best centre half in the world at the moment did not bad considering he made his name in Scotland to start with. There is also the conundrum of players who can't cut it in Scotland but tear up the Championship - I'm sure someone will bid silly money for Teemu Pukki at the end of the season, even though he was pretty useless up here.

[Mr_Danger]

Mostly the better past it players will earn considerably more coin at Champioship clubs or overseas so your only really getting the utter dirge usually. It's why Defoe is such a coup for Rangers because he's seen as being in decent shape and he could quite easily pop down a league and play a better standard. You'd have to imagine his wages are being heavily subsidised belt Bournemouth.

Barton was a weirdo who most people wouldn't touch with a ten foot barge pole.

[David]

19 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

The best measure is how things go the other way, such as a player doing well up there will usually end up at a Championship club.  But lets be fair, for a country the size of Scotland and for the population of Scotland, coupled with the money in Scottish football, the standard is pretty consistent with other countries that size.

For the size of the country, Scottish football isn't too bad at all really. Attendances in Scotland are, per capita, among the highest in Europe, which is quite something.

There's very few players who come up from England to Scotland and say "yeah, the league was as poor as I thought it would be." Most of them are surprised at the speed the game is played at, and the ability levels of a lot of the top flight players.

Not a patch on the English Premiership mind you, but it shouldn't be given the disparity in finances and suchlike.

 

[tiger_rick]

I like Scottish football and wasn't being disparaging but i do think it's a strikers paradise. In the past guys like Jon Daly and Lewis Moult who were low league strikers in England scored goals in the SPL and currently you've got Sam Cosgrove, who was utterly appalling in the National League, scoring for fun for Aberdeen. A striker of Defoe's quality should do very well. Especially in a team that creates chances. As good as Morelos is for Rangers, he doesn't half miss some.

[David]

The same can be applied in reverse though, can't it? Teemu Pukki is tearing it up for Norwich at the moment, isn't he? He was an absolute laughing stock in Scotland. 

Both Waghorn and Garner moved to Ipswich Town and did well, earning moves to other championship clubs after a year. Both of them were terrible in the Scottish Premiership.

[Fatty Facesitter]

36 minutes ago, David said:

The same can be applied in reverse though, can't it? Teemu Pukki is tearing it up for Norwich at the moment, isn't he? He was an absolute laughing stock in Scotland. 

To be fair that was four years ago - since that time he’s been playing in the Danish league with Brondby and his goal-scoring record gradually improved. I can’t comment in the differences between the leagues but he’s clearly improved in Denmark since his spell at Celtic finished and before he headed for the bright lights of Norfolk. Not sure how much his age has a bearing but he’s 28 now and effectively entering his peak years as well. 

I was massively underwhelmed when he joined us. Now, I’d do probably sexual favours for him. He has been fucking exceptional for us. Whether you judge it as a success story for the Scottish league or the Danish league is open to debate I guess.