SuperBacon Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 41 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said: The CIA took his legs I don't like to admit it but this has made me absolutely lol. Erm, yeah RIP Charles Manson from South Park Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted November 21, 2017 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2017 13 hours ago, UK Kat Von D said: Interesting fact about Manson: at age six there was a boy in his class he didn’t like so convinced a group a girls to beat him up at lunch. When questioned by the headmaster he denied all responsibility because he hadn’t actually taken part. Giving someone like that huge amounts of LSD is hardly the waiting game. End of post. Or, an alternative way of reading that story, he was capable of being a manipulative, psychopathic cunt without the help of the vague motivations of a sinister CIA plot. Yes, Manson's actions played a part in killing the hippy dream of peace and love. So did Altamont. So did the mass commercialisation of the movement. So did an economic shift to the right in American politics. Subcultures die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I totally agree that he was always capable of it, personally though I believe he was encouraged and enabled to fulfil an agenda. Why was he allowed out of prison when he warned them not to release him? Why was he allowed to form a huge off the grid Cult without drawing police attention? Altamont did also contribute heavily to ending the 60s attitude. Subcultures do have a shelf life, but this all has the evidence of an intentional attempt to end a counter government subculture. While I do appreciate you actually engaging in the conversation with counterpoints rather than writing it off as crazy, I don’t agree that with the word vague. There is lots of evidence, Manson was supplied Orange Sunshine by a man called Ronald Stark who had known connections with the CIA. There are detailed books like Helter Skelter by Vincent Bugliosi who go into great detail on the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Astro Hollywood Posted November 21, 2017 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2017 Manson was actually found not-guilty of the Tate/LaBianca murders, and went on to have further years of adventures with a new Manson Family. It's definitely true, because I read it in a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted November 21, 2017 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2017 Even if the CIA were involved - which I don't believe - they would have known by that point that the effects of LSD were far too unpredictable to have any practical purpose, so the idea that they would have used it to take some random career criminal in the hope that it would lead to him, or people near him, committing crimes horrific enough that it would by extension discredit the "hippy" subculture - which in itself was a nebulous collection of unrelated groups, individuals, and so on, the vast majority of which posed no threat whatsoever to the government - would have relied on so many variables that it would be functionally useless as a plan. There's no guarantee that LSD would have made him violent, no guarantee that his actions would somehow discredit thousands of people unrelated to him through some vague ill-defined association, or anything of the sort. As for being "allowed out of prison" - that's how prison works. You reach the end of your sentence, and you're released. There's no grand conspiracy in releasing a prison when his term is up - nor is it particularly surprising that Manson requested to stay in; less because he was "warning" people, more because at that point he'd already been imprisoned more than half his life, it was the most stability he ever knew. As for being able to build up a cult without police attention - you could ask the same of any other cult in history, or any cult active today. Chances are there was police attention, but these things can only be monitored. Being in a cult and being off-the-grid is cause for concern, but isn't in and of itself illegal. And it wasn't necessarily a huge cult, it would have had all the outward appearance of any other nutty hippy commune, of which there were plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WyattSheepMask Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42067506 Rodney Bewes from The Likely Lads, aged 79 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 A bit of a niche one here but Hiromi Tsuru, the voice of Bulma in the Dragon Ball franchise has passed away. She played the same character for 31 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awards Moderator Onyx2 Posted November 21, 2017 Awards Moderator Share Posted November 21, 2017 I can't wait for the next Richard Herring podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Astro Hollywood Posted November 21, 2017 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2017 10 hours ago, BomberPat said: Yes, Manson's actions played a part in killing the hippy dream of peace and love. So did Altamont. So did the mass commercialisation of the movement. So did an economic shift to the right in American politics. Subcultures die. While Max's probable-trolling is almost entirely bollocks, Manson was undoubtedly the one who ended the hippie dream, overnight. Firstly, anyone who thinks, in the pre-Helter Skelter years, he was on the CIA's radar as a dangerous cult leader has been suckered in by Manson's own patter. He liked to claim he was the ultimate Godfather and puppetmaster, but in truth, he was just a grotty low-level drug dealer. The two less-famous murders he carried out before the Summer of '69 were petty squabbles over drug money. He was a wannabe musician career criminal with a drug habit and paranoid schizophrenia, and there was no great plan, other than to fuck and steal and party, until he started believing the Beatles were talking to him through their albums, and through the madness, and his rage at being knocked back for a record deal, 'Helter Skelter' was born. But the Summer of Love spirit was killed by the Manson murders. Sure, hippies were a thorn in the side of the machine, but what the Manson Family did was make them dangerous. There's a small paragraph in Peter Biskind's Easy Riders, Raging Bulls, which covers the movie scene of the late 60's and early 70's, where a bunch of celebrities at the time -- Jack Nicholson, Margo Kidder, Spielberg maybe; that lot -- were having a gathering by one of their beach-front houses in LA. As always, the door was open, and everything was super relaxed. Then, a group of barefoot girls wandered along from the beach, went into the house and wordlessly began rearranging the furniture, and moving around the photos on the piano as someone was trying to play. It was a bit creepy, but only a square would say anything to that effect. Where's the love in that? Some months later, after Tate and Co were murdered, they realised they'd been visited by the Manson Family, and nobody's door was ever left unlocked again. When the killers were still yet to be found, the fear and paranoia in the liberal world was white-hot. The partying stopped altogether. When they were found, everyone in Hollywood had a story about a brush with the Manson Family; everyone was 'supposed to be at the Tate house that night, but had had a feeling...' And everyone re-evaluated their behaviour of casual, open-door free-love. Who's to say the girl you picked up hitching didn't have a knife? It's probably overreaching to compare it to the modern Islamic boogeyman, but the shift was instant. Hippies were not to be trusted. They became a dirty word. Though they'd waved their protest signs, and sung their songs, they'd always been toothless; unthreatening. But then a bunch of teenage girls met a man with long hair, smoked some weed, and stabbed an 8 1/2 month pregnant woman 16 times in the stomach, and got everyone thinking "That could have been my daughter..." And not just of Tate, but of the ones doing the stabbing. Let everyone love freely; let your kids off the leash, and look what might happen. Shut that down before it starts. And keep your door locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Sergio Mendacious Posted November 21, 2017 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2017 Epic knowledge drop there, you should write a book about Manson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Astro Hollywood Posted November 21, 2017 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2017 13 minutes ago, Sergio Mendacious said: Epic knowledge drop there, you should write a book about Manson Nobody would buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members FLips Posted November 21, 2017 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2017 3 minutes ago, Astro Hollywood said: Nobody would buy it. Hasn't stopped you before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Astro Hollywood said: While Max's probable-trolling is almost entirely bollocks, Manson was undoubtedly the one who ended the hippie dream, overnight. I’m not trolling, I genuinely think it was an intentional and part of an agenda. I do find your take on the events interesting though. Either way, planned or not my original point was that he changed the world and people’s lives. Personally I don’t buy that he was a burn out nobody. The enquiry never went through, the man who investigated everything and brought government files to light is now dead. So it will never be conclusively proven either way (or at least not for a long time until when people have stopped giving a shit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Wiseau Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 David Cassidy went in the night. It'd been coming since the weekend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted November 22, 2017 Moderators Share Posted November 22, 2017 8 hours ago, UK Kat Von D said: Either way, planned or not my original point was that he changed the world and people’s lives. Uh. No. Your original point was that it was intentionally and explicitly planned. No-one is arguing that his actions didn't have a huge impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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