Raw 26th November (SPOILERS)

[JLM]

Ultimately it's the wrestler in question that knows if something is too risky or not.

 

I don't think that's true at all. I think a lot of wrestlers are absolutely terrible decision makers when it comes to stuff like that, which is one of the big reasons why so many of them have shortened lifespans and careers. The wrestler can decide how risky they think it is, but they do things without knowing how dangerous they might be in the long term or short term all the time. Ziggler didn't kill himself or get reprimanded for taking that bump, but just look at it. If you asked him to do that twenty more times and have it look exactly the same and pose exactly the same level of risk I am seriously doubtful he could do it.

[Dirty Eddie]

Ultimately it's the wrestler in question that knows if something is too risky or not.

 

I don't think that's true at all. I think a lot of wrestlers are absolutely terrible decision makers when it comes to stuff like that, which is one of the big reasons why so many of them have shortened lifespans and careers. The wrestler can decide how risky they think it is, but they do things without knowing how dangerous they might be in the long term or short term all the time. Ziggler didn't kill himself or get reprimanded for taking that bump, but just look at it. If you asked him to do that twenty more times and have it look exactly the same and pose exactly the same level of risk I am seriously doubtful he could do it.

 

Which is why I'd agree that he's an idiot if he was up to number 10 or 11 already, instead of 1. Every time someone falls from a ladder to the outside there is a risk. Every time someone does a spot with a table there is a risk, that why you don't do that stuff every night unless you want to end up like Sabu.

 

Like I said earlier, nobody outside of the match participants and agents knows what planning went on. It didn't seem like an on the spot "Hey Albert, throw me recklessly towards that chair" situation. It was probably a planned spot that they'd ran by at least one person when putting the match together. There are too many intricate spots to get to in a TLC match for everyone to be ad-libbing dangerous stuff throughout.

[Statto]

No mention of the #RawActive voting debacle? Within 2 minutes, #WWEBryan was trending worldwide. Bryan is the most over person on the show. And they want us to believe the public voted for CM Punk vs Kane? Look, I love a bit of Kane, but great jebus. Farcical. My wife said there was a bit of a twitter meltdown afterwards. Bryan won the vote 585 - 408 according to briefest internet search. (Only takes 585 tweets to trend worldwide? Really?)

 

Just watched Raw, and had this thought - maybe a voting fuck-up will be the injustice The Shield were rallying against this week?

[niff]

No mention of the #RawActive voting debacle? Within 2 minutes, #WWEBryan was trending worldwide. Bryan is the most over person on the show. And they want us to believe the public voted for CM Punk vs Kane? Look, I love a bit of Kane, but great jebus. Farcical. My wife said there was a bit of a twitter meltdown afterwards. Bryan won the vote 585 - 408 according to briefest internet search. (Only takes 585 tweets to trend worldwide? Really?)

 

Just watched Raw, and had this thought - maybe a voting fuck-up will be the injustice The Shield were rallying against this week?

 

You're overthinking it, its all fixed but as long as Twitter's popular they'll continue these polls. Trending worldwide is way more beneficial than what the WWE Universe actually want.

[Benno]

I remember this Ziggler argument a while back. This is the only place I've seen over react so much to a bump on a padded chair. He was in control of his body and knew what he was doing. I'd take that bump all day over alot of other stuff in wrestling.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

You don't look very far then, unless you look for opinions that parrot each other. This isn't even the first place I read about it, and I visit here regularly. You can't fake gravity. The pace he was going left a small margin for error. What's the point in even defending it? It was a stupid bump. If you like stupid bumps, then fair enough. But don't try and say it was safe as houses, because it wasn't. He wasn't on a bouncy castle. Wrestling is dangerous as it is.

[ShortOrderCook]

Sad thing is that's all he's had going for him lately, and it's a sad state of affairs that he has to do desperate shit like that to get noticed.

 

He's no better than a deathmatch guy when you strip it all down. Putting his life on the line for no reason.

 

I think that's a little harsh. Incredible that, that bump has sparked a pages long debate again months later. One thing that occurs to me with this argument on Ziggler, many have compared him to Mr. Perfect in the past, partly for his bumping. That seemed to be something people loved Perfect for and praised him for, despite the fact it most likely played a fair part in shortening his career and life.

 

EDIT- On the bump itself, when watching it on the show for the first time, my instinct thought was that Booker and co rushed out of the way unexpectedly. They may have said they were going to do that bump and informed them to move out the way, but the way it appeared to me was a little of the fly and Ziggler launched himself as that's the sort of thing he does, but with the point about so little time to land safely, there was also very little time for Booker and Cole to all move out the way and maybe Ziggler anticipated them being there to cushion the blow. I'm not saying that is the case, just my first thought when i first saw it. I've always thought the backlash at Ziggler for doing that bump was a little harsh when the commentary guys may have just moved on instinct.

[The Dart]

The reactionon here is amazing.

 

It was a PPV gimmick match that only happens once a year, known for its dangerous spots, which he was winning and could lead to the biggest moment of his career. I'd say most the mad ladder spots are more dangerous, more likely to injure and lead to permanent injury. He wasn't hurt, but like someone said, Cody Rhodes is on the shelf with 4 seperate injuries from a back body drop. Is this forum gonna go berserk next time someone takes one now because they might get hurt?

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Hardly going berserk is it? The people defending this kind of stupid shit are the ones getting arse hurt from people suggesting it isn't anything other than brilliant. If he died tomorrow it wouldn't put me off my corn flakes, so it matters little to me. I just don't get the daft argument that the Cody Rhodes example is any sort of justification. You are supposed to minimize the risk of injury by not taking so many stupid bumps because you can injury yourself doing simple stuff like a back drop. Secondly, when you are told you are winning the biggest match in your career, isn't it defeating the purpose by doing something to take the attention off that victory and making someone else look good? Maybe that's why wrestling is on its arse these days and few people are over as money drawing acts. Because the fan base don't give a fuck about the wrestlers and see them as another twat on the conveyor belt of pain killer addiction.

[Jackpot]

Opening the night with Ryback beating Titus O'Neill, after he has beaten Darren Young on SmackDown. For one of the few tag teams who look like a decent prospect, this has halted their momentum. Also don't think it's done anything drastically for Ryback either. The match itself, the ending looked so sh*t. Ryback thrown against the ropes, then lifted in mid air with no reversal he gets put back on his feet by Titus. Then Ryback goes to throw Titus one way then the other into Darren Young. The meat hook clothesline didn't look smooth either. Then after the match, I would of rather seen Ryback run right through all five of the security guards than just toss one over the top rope. He should of wrecked the ring before Vickie gave in and gave him his title match at TLC.

 

Next we get Rosa Mendes having a go at Hornswoggle for last week's antics. Does anybody care really? Well apparently Del Rio does as he comes to Rosa's aid and threatens Hornswoggle only to be interrupted by The Great Khali. Two weeks in a row for Khali, Crimbo has come early for him. This whole backstage segment leads to a match between Del Rio and Khali. Del Rio works over the arm of Khali, and Khali looks so f**king slow it's unreal. Ricardo Rodriguez tries to get involved only to have his arse bit by Hornswoggle. Ends up with Del Rio putting the arm breaker on Khali with Khali eventually tapping out. I know I've wanted Del Rio to move on from Orton, but this was a f**king shambles for him. Hopefully this is the end of Del Rio/Khali. Though, it looks like there's something going on between Del Rio and Rosa.

 

This match was followed up by Vickie being confronted by Punk over her decision to give Ryback a match for the title at TLC. Vickie's reasons are because of Maddox at Hell In A Cell and Ambrose, Rollins and Reigns involvement at Survivor Series. Punk still denies having anything to do with any of them. But Vickie then says he'll be in a match tonight with either Bryan or Kane depending on who the WWE "universe" vote for on twitter. The term WWE universe is possibly my biggest hate in the current wrestling world. This seems to piss Punk off and since being aligned with Heyman, they've turned him into a whinging c**t which Punk shouldn't be.

 

We then get Michael Cole interviewing Ambrose, Rollins and Reigns who we would later find out are going under the name of The Shield. They say they're not the new Nexus or nWo and are not helping Punk. It's just a coincidence that everything they've done has benefited Punk. They're here to right the wrongs of the WWE. They're all about principle and honour. Reigns then finally says he has something to say and that is "we've said too much" and therefore the interview ends. Possibly the best part of the show thus far.

 

Then we get a typical divas match. Tamina against Alicia that goes on for the usual five minutes until Tamina hits her dad's Superfly Splash and picks up the win.

 

Oh goody, up next is the latest part of the AJ/Cena scandal. Everybody is bored of this by now aren't they? Last week with Ziggler running down AJ was good, this week with Cena attempting to take the piss about Vickie's gift was boring as f**k. AJ then comes out talking about she is no longer the person who cost Bryan the World Heavyweight championship at WrestleMania or the person who proposed to Punk or the person Kane called unstable. After more tedious and boring bickering, Ziggler comes out and delivers a pretty boring promo which infuriates Cena and has him close to chasing Ziggler. Vickie stops it and says they will fight in the ring. Surely this should of been kept till TLC?

 

Kofi against Tensai in a non-title match with Barrett on commentary. Once again I ask what's the point of Tensai now? Kofi wins the match after what looked like a rather weak Trouble In Paradise from outside the ring. It ends with Barrett handing Kofi the IC Title and walking away smirking. Don't think it really took the feud any further forward.

 

Then we get Bryan and Kane backstage with Bryan telling his tag team partner that the entire world likes him better than Kane. Only for Josh Matthews to reveal that Kane actually won the RAWactive poll. This is despite earlier in the show them saying WWEBryan was trending worldwide. Shows how the whole RAWactive voting is bollocks. Never mind Mr Bryan, you still get a match up next with Rey Mysterio.

 

Bryan would go onto lose the match with Rey due to being hit with a 619 round the ring post. No doubt they work this into a tag team title match at TLC, but Bryan is clearly getting fu**ed by the WWE. This is the sort of match he should of won in my opinion.

 

Now we get Cena against Ziggler with a decent match with the usual sh*te you expect in a Cena match. The usual chants of "let's go Cena" "Cena sucks" were almost dead in terms of volume. Sounded like ten people where chanting. Anyway, Cena ends up reinjuring his knee and rolls out of the ring for medical attention. Instead of doing what a heel would do and attacking the knee, Ziggler goes to expose the turnbuckle. Yeah, well done WWE. Anyway, AJ comes down to stop the showoff which in turn brings Vickie out getting in the face of AJ. The ref tries to stop the two bickering and while that's going on Ziggler swings the Money In The Bank suitcase at Cena who ducks and hits the attitude adjustment for the victory. So, Ziggler can't even beat a one legged Cena? Another great move WWE especially after the way they were building up Ziggler's last week. Just another case of the WWE f**king over Ziggler.

 

Up next is Sheamus against Ceasaro. Now this is the sort of match I'd expect to see end in a draw or Sheamus win via DQ because of Big Show. What I wouldn't expect is Ceasaro being counted out because that just makes the US champ look so f**king weak. I suppose though it keeps the whole not American can beat Ceasaro. After the match though we get Big Show attempting to break a steel chair with his bare hands, it looked so stupid because it wouldn't break properly. He kept trying to punch the seat out and it wouldn't. The joys of live telly.

 

Sandow v Ryder...Sandow wins. End of description of a match that means absolutely nothing.

 

Finally the main event, Punk against Kane. Kane dominates quite easily despite some dodgy tactics by Heyman and Punk. The Shield make an appearance which distracts Kane and allows Punk to hit the GTS and get the victory. Then The Shield enter the ring eyeing up Punk but instead attack Kane. Bryan then comes to the ring and gets twatted as well. Ryback makes his way to the ring and kicks sh*t out of The Shield. So make the tag team champions look sh*t but Ryback look great.

 

Punk attempts to beat down Ryback while he's dealing with The Shield only for Ryback to get the upper hand on Punk. Eventually though The Shield return to their feet and powerbomb Ryback. The show ends with Punk standing over Ryback with the title in the air. Hmm...didn't we see that last week?

 

All in all, I thought this was a sh*t RAW.

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

That's a very dangerous bump to be fair. Definitely the most dangerous on the show. You've been in a ring Andrew. You should realise how mental that bump is to control.

 

That's very kind of you to imply I have some sort of limited experience of this.

 

I've wrestled and I've reffed lots of matches and what I saw there wasn't a particularly suicidal bump. Some people have excellent control on their body and if dolph feels confidant enough in landing a well rehearsed flip bump into a cheap padded chair, then more power to him. I thought it was a great bump and nowhere near as dangerous as people are making it out to be.

 

At someones suggestion I did watch the match just now. I will fully admit that it was one of the tamer ladder matches I've seen, but still I saw a handful of spots that were arguably more dangerous or riskier. These included Sandow nearly cracking his head on a wayward ladder after falling off another ladder, a botched top rope move from Sin Cara, Tyson doing a crazy little springboard sunset flip power and more...

 

In fact I counted 11 other spots in my opinion that deserve as much scrutiny as the table spot. Am I winging that wrestling is too dangerous? No... I'm arguing that wrestling shows are full of calculated risk just like any hobby and the table spot is no different.

 

Frankly I think anyone calling foul over this are nothing more than limp wet lettuces. It's not like Dolph does this spot day in and day out... He hit one well rehearsed spot once on a big ppv he was winning at. It's hardly a top rope flipping styles clash to a Indy show full of 25 fans.

[hallicks]

You're overthinking it, its all fixed but as long as Twitter's popular they'll continue these polls. Trending worldwide is way more beneficial than what the WWE Universe actually want.

 

I'm almost certain WWE had their money on "Team Friendship" when they had the Kane/Bryan vote, but some more brief internet research says all the polls are now fixed. Apparently Ryder got way more votes than the Miz to go on Foley's team at SS, but they had their plan for Miz to be a face so it's important for him to be on the good guy team.

 

I shouldn't be disappointed, it's just such blatant disingenuousness that annoys me. That, and that I'd much rather have seen Bryan vs Punk.

[King Pitcos]

If he had crippled himself on the arm of the chair, I wonder who would've won. And whether they'd have won the title by now.

[air_raid]

One thing that occurs to me with this argument on Ziggler, many have compared him to Mr. Perfect in the past, partly for his bumping. That seemed to be something people loved Perfect for and praised him for, despite the fact it most likely played a fair part in shortening his career and life.

 

Let's not stretch the truth here. Hennig overdosed on crack. How he bumped had no influence on that.

 

But yeah, Perfect fucked his back up bumping like a nutter doing his regular 360 out of a hard turnbuckle that he'd done a hundred times, to make Davey Boy Smith look good. Ziggler throws himself upside down across the announce position with no control over what his head ends up bouncing off, for Tensai. There's dedication to working for your opponent, and then there's stupid/pointless.

[Sphinx]

Did anyone else chuck themselves about on sofas or get chucked about on sofas by brothers or mates when they were a kid? I know a chair isn't a sofa, but you get more accustomed to how to control yourself. I'm certain there were times I was thrown on there and landed upside down and laughed, got up and went back for more. Not over a table, but you get accustomed to the flight. People who are agile often 'feel' what they can and can't do. Obviously some get it wrong and get injured, but to them it's part of the thrill and risk. I used to look at railings and test if I could jump both feet at the same time like a springboard and I knew if it was out of my comfort zone. I'd start the motion, then stop myself and think 'fuck this'. Same with bins and falls. Personally, I've never had a serious injury. I'm not saying I couldn't have, but I felt I had a grip on my boundaries. When was the last time Ziggler was out injured?

 

I think Dolph knew he could do it. The debate on it shouldn't span so many pages though. Like Andrew said, there were just as dangerous spots in the match and on other matches. I remember one where a ladder was thrown on Kane who was laid outside the ring which almost caught him right in the mush. The sunset flip powerbomb had contorted bodies which could have led to injury.

 

However, in the grand scheme of things was it relevant to the match? This is the crux of the problem with Dolph. He's taken the throw off of Tensai, but I don't think many look and say 'wow, Tensai murdered him' as much as 'wow, did you see Ziggler?' And if he's known for taking bumps, which he is, he becomes expected to take them. I think the focus was more on him than Tensai, so it didn't achieve much.

 

In summary, a bump that isn't as dangerous as it's made out to be but one that is a bit pointless nonetheless. Michaels' Asai moonsault onto the announce table against Flair looked dangerous but he got it absolutely spot on. The difference is Michaels' was on a grander scale (though he was in his forties at the time) and played into the match more.