Random thoughts thread v2 *NO NEWS ITEMS*

[gmoney]

To be fair Ian does know everything there is to know about wrestling hence his successful career in the business. I've found it's pretty futile to disagree.

 

And you've found that the best course of action is to smarmily post sarcastic comments, you unctuous twat.

[Mr Butternut Squash]

I'd never even taken notice of this whole 'moveset' thing until I came here. It is kind of annoying but blah . . It's a word that doesn't feel so derogatory when applied to WWE's current style. I mean it's always been pretty formulaic but it feels like it's been regressing for the last several years.

[HWM]

To be fair Ian does know everything there is to know about wrestling hence his successful career in the business. I've found it's pretty futile to disagree.

 

And you've found that the best course of action is to smarmily post sarcastic comments, you unctuous twat.

 

Not really. Just find it frustrating that differing opinions don't seem to be tolerated on here, and neither does lighthearted banter. However, I did learn a new word in 'unctuous', so all is not lost.

[PowerButchi]

Hogan and Savage were still pushed based on abilities they had as well. Whether that's charisma or whatever. It that meant nothing they never would have caught on. Andre too, obvious why he was pushed but he still knew how to work and had that ability. If not, they'd have all ended up like that guy who looked amazing, was an amazing athlete, had a barnburner with Bret Hart and got touted as the next big thing before being exposed and fading into obscurity.

 

I think a lot of it is working smart, as opposed to working hard. It's why Mark Henry is such a fun worker, and Mike Awesome was such a fucking awful one. Mark Henry's a big man, and so works like one. Surprise, surprise: He's amazing. Mike Awesome was a big man and tried to work like a light heavyweight, and he was utter shite.

 

I think that's why Hogan and Andre were so good in my eyes. They worked smart.

 

 

neither does lighthearted banter

 

EH? There's loads of lighthearted japes on here. Difference is, those who partake in it and people laugh along are actually funny.

Edited December 6, 2012 by PowerButchi

[gmoney]

Not really. Just find it frustrating that differing opinions don't seem to be tolerated on here, and neither does lighthearted banter. However, I did learn a new word in 'unctuous', so all is not lost.

 

 

Of course they're allowed, it's just you threw your toys out of the pram and decided you were above this place at the first sign of an argument.

[Dirty Eddie]

The issue I take with the notion that "the match that sold all the tickets is the best match" is the fact that you have to apply that logic across the board. If Hogan/Andre was the best because it drew the crowd, then surely every match that headlines a PPV is that PPV's best match?

 

It's only ever really one match that is sold as being the focus of a PPV (there are obviously a few exceptions like that SummerSlam 90' "Double Main Event" stuff) so surely the top match is the best match on every card, using that logic. That I strongly disagree with. Best build-up, best storyline going into it, best promotion - absolutely, but once the event starts you'd already sold all the tickets/PPV buys. At that point, I regard what happens on the actual event for the next 2 hours and 45 minutes as where I'd base the "best match" honours.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

The issue I take with the notion that "the match that sold all the tickets is the best match" is the fact that you have to apply that logic across the board. If Hogan/Andre was the best because it drew the crowd, then surely every match that headlines a PPV is that PPV's best match?

Not every match is Hogan vs Andre. You can't judge this by the standards of some random WWE B-PPV. It was an massively hyped match. It lived up to the hype. And for the next two years continued to break records on PPV, house shows and TV off the back of it. People bought it, liked what they saw and wanted to see more of it. Why aren't people getting that? Ryback and Team Hell No vs the Shield is just another main event. Hogan and Andre was every wrestling fans dream and the fact people kept paying to see it after such a limited match showed that the match itself lived up to what people wanted out of it. Technically Sheamus vs Bryan was way better than Brock vs Cena. But the latter was incredibly dramatic and special. Its a wrestling promoters and the wrestlers job to give the fanbase they are targeting what they want and what they continue to want. Not every main event gives you that.

Edited December 6, 2012 by IANdrewDiceClay

[ShortOrderCook]

Hogan and Savage were still pushed based on abilities they had as well. Whether that's charisma or whatever. It that meant nothing they never would have caught on. Andre too, obvious why he was pushed but he still knew how to work and had that ability. If not, they'd have all ended up like that guy who looked amazing, was an amazing athlete, had a barnburner with Bret Hart and got touted as the next big thing before being exposed and fading into obscurity.

 

I think a lot of it is working smart, as opposed to working hard. It's why Mark Henry is such a fun worker, and Mike Awesome was such a fucking awful one. Mark Henry's a big man, and so works like one. Surprise, surprise: He's amazing. Mike Awesome was a big man and tried to work like a light heavyweight, and he was utter shite.

 

I think that's why Hogan and Andre were so good in my eyes. They worked smart.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Question for everyone stemming from the last couple of pages (although Eddie has kind of beat me to it), what's the best match of all time?

[PowerButchi]

WAR GAMES '92.

[Dirty Eddie]

The issue I take with the notion that "the match that sold all the tickets is the best match" is the fact that you have to apply that logic across the board. If Hogan/Andre was the best because it drew the crowd, then surely every match that headlines a PPV is that PPV's best match?

Not every match is Hogan vs Andre. You can't judge this by the standards of some random WWE B-PPV. It was an massively hyped match. It lived up to the hype. And for the next two years continued to break records on PPV, house shows and TV off the back of it. People bought it, liked what they saw and wanted to see more of it. Why aren't people getting that? Ryback and Team Hell No vs the Shield is just another main event. Hogan and Andre was every wrestling fans dream and the fact people kept paying to see it after such a limited match showed that the match itself lived up to what people wanted out of it. Technically Sheamus vs Bryan was way better than Brock vs Cena. But the latter was incredibly dramatic and special. Its a wrestling promoters and the wrestlers job to give the fanbase they are targeting what they want and what they continue to want. Not every main event gives you that.

 

 

Obviously Hogan/Andre was a special occasion/big fight feel situation, but that doesn't defeat my point I don't think.

 

To an extent, every show is sold on the main event. Andre/Hogan was much bigger than most, but the logic still applies. If it's just money we are talking about, then the main event match will always be the "best" match. I'd argue that money drawn at the time (and indeed the months after) is just looking at the financial side of things again. Not everyone thinks like that. For WWF employees Hogan/Andre might be the "best match ever" but over twenty years on there are still fans, experts and wrestlers who all put Savage/Steamboat in their top ten matches ever. Hogan/Andre never makes those lists. It was a huge event of it's time, but lacks the re-watch appeal of the more timeless Savage match. And again i come back to "promotion of a match Vrs the actual match". PPVs are sold on the build-up. Hogan/Andre had the best build-up (one of the best ever in wrestling) but the match was only epic at the time and shortly after. It's not become a stand-alone classic, outside of replaying the actual slam.

 

Was Triple H/Orton the best match at Mania 25 ahead of Taker/Shawn?

 

Was Hogan/Sid better than Savage/Flair at Mania 8?

Edited December 6, 2012 by Dirty Eddie

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Hogan and Andre is the biggest match they've ever done. You can't judge that by throwing in shite main events from PPVs everyone has forgot about. Sid vs Hogan didn't do great business, it didn't spawn any business spike following it and it wasn't a dream match of any sort. Randy Orton vs Triple H wasn't even nailed on for the main event spot until the day of the card.

 

Hogan vs Andre was the match that the fan base of the time were watching wrestling for. They gave that fan base exactly what they were paying for. They wanted to see it before the event, during the event and long after the event. Find me a match that has those qualities today and you have the best match on the show.

Edited December 6, 2012 by IANdrewDiceClay

[Loki]

Al Snow also had a cracking match with himself.

 

Seriously though, his best match at WrestleMania III theory is tremendously flawed.

 

How so? Pro wrestling is a con. It's about making money.

 

Not necessarily. I don't make any money off it. Therefore I appreciate the art form more and would rather watch Steamboat-Savage over Hogan-Andre.

 

Have you considered the fact that, without Hogan-Andre on the card, you wouldn't get Steamboat-Savage? Somebody said earlier that different matches at different places on the card have different jobs. Hogan and Andre's job was to get people in the building, sell PPVs, and create a momentous once-in-a-lifetime moment. The IC title match was designed to put two great technicians and storytellers together and produce a beautiful match.

 

Which was better? Savage-Steamboat. But it required the main event to even exist.

[Dirty Eddie]

Hogan and Andre is the biggest match they've ever done. You can't judge that by throwing in shite main events from PPVs everyone has forgot about. Sid vs Hogan didn't do great business, it didn't spawn any business spike following it and it wasn't a dream match of any sort. Randy Orton vs Triple H wasn't even nailed on for the main event spot until the day of the card.

 

Hogan vs Andre was the match that the fan base of the time were watching wrestling for. They gave that fan base exactly what they were paying for. They wanted to see it before the event, during the event and long after the event. Find me a match that has those qualities today and you have the best match on the show.

 

You keep talking about the fanbase at the time, like that's the sole answer to "what is the best match". There are loads of other ways to look at it.

 

Historically speaking (and as I already said) most people consider the Savage match one of the best ever, not just Mania matches, but all matches. No bugger thinks that about Hogan/Andre. It was a huge meeting of icons and a big deal at the time, but the actual match itself isn't held up as a classic by anyone.

 

Also, what the public craves the most isn't always going to hold up years down the line as "the best thing going at the time". Both Kylie and Jason Donovan are in the top 15 selling albums of the 80s in the UK. That doesn't mean we are unable to look back and say "actually, they were quite shit. People liked them though".

 

If you were arguing that Hogan/Andre was the best promoted or best built-up match ever I'd completely agree. I however prefer to separate the promotion of a match to the actual match itself.

[PowerButchi]

No bugger thinks that about Hogan/Andre. It was a huge meeting of icons and a big deal at the time, but the actual match itself isn't held up as a classic by anyone.

 

A quick google search threw up a few people who'd disagree with that. Although I'm honestly not sure who's opinion I should take as counting when they write about wrestling other than myself and Hyatte as it's not as if wrestling is full of Siskel and Eberts.

[Devon Malcolm]

Coincidentally I was watching the Edge DVD today and had I not bought it, I would never have remembered Johnny Swinger's brief sojourn as "Johnny Parisi" on the weekend shows

 

I'm curious. What is the context in which Johnny Parisi is mentioned on Edge's DVD?

 

Not sure which Edge DVD air_raid is referring to, but I read somewhere that he and Swinger are pretty good friends so I would imagine it would be along those lines.