Minor news items that don't deserve a thread

[Kaz Hayashi]

13 hours ago, LaGoosh said:

Wasn't the other issue with Jinder in India that not only was he not actually from India, ethnically his family background is actually a minority group in India. He does't even speak the same dialect as most of India. More than anything though I think WWE just don't get that most countries don't have the same level of blind patriotism as the US. Most countries aren't going to cheer, go mental and spend loads of money on someone just because someone is from the same country as them.

I’ve been thinking about this a bit. Now in fairness, you can understand why WWE assume that fans will cheer the home town guy, it’s been a fully established wrestling concept for decades. In terms of countries outside of North America, the U.K, Canada and Mexico tend to get behind their country men when WWE present them in a certain way.

Their failure is lack of research and just assuming every country will respond the same way. Canada, Mexico and the U.K. have a looong standing pro wrestling heritage, it is/has been nationally recognised and due to which we buy in to the concept. Some of our performers are elite athletes and are internationally recognised as legitimate top wrestlers (whatever that means to some will differ).

With the likes of India however, it’s not really a country you would associate with pro-wrestling. It doesn’t have a huge history/heritage and therefore I believe the fans won’t behave or react in the same way we/Canadians/Mexicans would. 

Instead I expect them to act completely wide eyed and un-jaded. Almost with the innocence a youngster has when they watch it. In which case they will be fully in to whoever is being showcased as the ultimate good guy and boo the big nasty villain. They should just go with that format rather than a home town hero. 

[BomberPat]

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. In my (admittedly limited) experience, Indian people are very keen to get behind a national hero type - Khali being the most obvious wrestling example, but in terms of national pride in general, the devotion to the Indian cricket team is legendary, and then there's the old Goodness Gracious Me sketch with the Grandad claiming everything is Indian ("Superman? Indian!"), and they certainly don't strike me as a country that's not likely to take pride in a national hero.

I think it's much more likely that they just didn't buy Jinder Mahal as being that national hero - whether that's because they saw through his push just as much as everyone else did, or because he's insufficiently "Indian", I don't know.

As for Indian wrestling heritage, once upon a time wrestlers were Indian folk heroes - and well into the 20th Century there were stories of Indian wrestlers undefeated for decades, with 1000s of wins, and unparalleled strength. The original Great Gama (not to be mistaken for Gama Singh, Jinder's uncle) was - and perhaps still is - a folk hero on the level of an El Santo in Mexico or Rikidozan in Japan, if not moreso in the early 20th century. His story was pretty much identical to any other "national hero" wrestler of any other country in the early to mid 20th century - made his name defeating a local fighter previously fought unbeatable, then went on to face all the foreign top stars of the age and beat them soundly.

It may be, though, that the Indian public don't see what WWE are doing today as following on directly from the sort of thing Gama was doing in the '20s, but I don't think it's right to say that they have no tradition of wrestling - I think they have an extremely proud history of wrestling, but one which WWE haven't necessarily figured out the best way of capitalising on.

On the idea of the fans being wide-eyed and unjaded, that was apparently the case when Ring Ka King ran there - Western wrestling apparently wasn't really a TV product there at the time, so they realised they could run the sort of angle that had been done to death in the US, or was just so simplistic that Western viewers wouldn't get invested, and it was all new to this audience.

I wonder if ticket prices played into it? I have no idea what they were charging, but hearing that Triple H was getting "CM Punk" chants at one point would suggest that a significant part of the audience were those wiser to the product than you might expect, which leads me to think they were likely more well off than the majority of the population; there's going to be a big difference between playing to (relatively) wealthy urban Indians who have followed the product on television and playing to a less well off audience without that luxury. If ticket prices were prohibitive, they might have lost out on a potential broader market of people less jaded to the product and more likely to buy into "Jinder Mahal is a national hero" at face value. This is completely blind speculation, though.

Edited December 12, 2017 by BomberPat

[Kaz Hayashi]

Well there you go, I stand corrected. Indeed it’s me who hasn’t researched.

In fairness, I was attempting to reference to the last 30-40 years of it being televised, 80’s and onwards Americanised pro wrestling, so should have picked better wording. My main point being that as a fan, you don’t categorise India as having a pro wrestling identity .. I obviously wouldn’t argue that they do as you’ve pointed out, but outside of India it hasn’t exactly been published to the extent of Canada, the America’s, U.K. Japan etc. Your paragraph regarding Ring Ka King is what I was attempting to note, and I feel that even though they have had a taste of a tinned boiled burger (TNA) they hadn’t yet had a double Big Macmahon. The equivalent of watching a 3x over recorded VHS of Star Wars with tracking problems and London’s burning cutting through the ending, compared to sitting in an IMAX with a private viewing.

Regarding Khali, is he famous in India because he was a wrestler, or because he is the epitome of a God who happened to wrestle? I don’t know enough about the exacts of his celebrity status over there, other than the fact he’s worshipped.

I appreciate your schooling on wrestling as a heritage in India, I was indeed aware of Pehlwani traditional forms of grappling, but as mentioned I was more trying to reference the professional side of things. Either way as you’ve pointed out, it does seem that WWE haven’t been sure on what it is they need to capitalise on.

[BomberPat]

I don't think it matters so much if their tradition of wrestling hasn't been publicised outside of India, is more my point - because it's inside of India that they're trying to sell it.

And while India has a heritage of wrestling, both professional and amateur, it doesn't really gel with what WWE are offering - maybe they're missing a trick by not trying to tie what they do into an existing heritage, maybe that would be a fool's errand. My instinct is that Jinder Mahal wasn't "Indian enough", but maybe I'm giving the Indian fanbase too little credit, and they just rejected him because he's a bit shit.

As for Great Khali, it's an interesting question. Looking at how he's covered on somewhere like the Times of India, he's always referred to as a former WWE Champion or wrestling champion, so I think the wrestling is the most substantial part of why he's famous, and probably plays into that idea of the unbeatable Indian champion. But his fame within India transcends wrestling now, for sure.

[Carbomb]

One thing to bear in mind about Khali is that he already had something of a profile in Asia, having competed in pro-wrestling and MMA as Giant Singh. He would have been touted as an Indian athlete, and had some exposure; in the Anglosphere and in the West, it's often difficult to gauge the terrain of different mediascapes in which we have no extensive and regular cultural investment, such as Asia, Africa, South America, etc. 

Additionally, Khali being "proper" Indian makes a difference in cultural terms too: he was born and raised in India, he lived and worked in India prior to wrestling, he was known to a local community and communities within the country beyond that, he's known to be very religious and disciplined in his faith, something that plays well in the Indian media, he's married to a Sikh woman despite being Hindu, which puts him over to the younger generations as a bridge-builder between communities and being a celebratory representative of India's multi-faceted society, he's taken part in peace rallies, etc. He's just generally a likable guy, and there are a lot of articles on Indian-based news and entertainment sites that express this view.

Mahal, on the other hand, was only really exposed globally via WWE, and not very well to begin with at that. He's Canadian-born and raised, which means he probably didn't spend all that much time in India involved with the media and culture. A cursory look at his Wiki suggests the only significant time he spent professionally in India was with Khali's promotion when he was released the first time. He didn't really have the base to get over as an Indian hero.

Mahabali Shera, on the other hand, might have more of a chance, despite being terrible. I'd be intrigued to see what WWE could do with him if they got him into their Performance Centre. He's got a good look, and facially he's got the look of a young Bollywood star. Could be marketable.

[Ambulance Chaser]

I think we can all agree the solution to this is signing Mahabali Sheera

[Carbomb]

14 minutes ago, Ambulance Chaser said:

I think we can all agree the solution to this is signing Mahabali Sheera

NO! I'm not saying that at all. Shera, as is, is crapola.

Put Shera through the PC, and if he improves, then it's a potential solution.

 

EDIT: Another thing comes to mind about Mahal. Being Canadian-raised, chances are he probably speaks Punjabi with a Canadian accent. That might not go down too well if they're pushing him as Indian and billing him as being from Punjab. Nobody in the UK, least of all the Scots, bought Roddy Piper as a Scot, did they? Obviously he was popular, but not for being Scottish.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Carbomb

[mim731]

 

29 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

EDIT: Another thing comes to mind about Mahal. Being Canadian-raised, chances are he probably speaks Punjabi with a Canadian accent. That might not go down too well if they're pushing him as Indian and billing him as being from Punjab. Nobody in the UK, least of all the Scots, bought Roddy Piper as a Scot, did they? Obviously he was popular, but not for being Scottish.

Not to go off on a massive tangent, but I feel like with Piper, being "a Scot" was almost like his secondary occupation outside of wrestling, in the way Bossman was a corrections officer, The Mountie was a Mountie, Brutus Beefcake was a barber, Nailz was a prisoner, presumably Dibiase was a businessman, Duke Droese was a binman etc. It was a part of his character, but it never relied on a sense of patriotism or national pride really.

[Carbomb]

16 minutes ago, mim731 said:

 

Not to go off on a massive tangent, but I feel like with Piper, being "a Scot" was almost like his secondary occupation outside of wrestling, in the way Bossman was a corrections officer, The Mountie was a Mountie, Brutus Beefcake was a barber, Nailz was a prisoner, presumably Dibiase was a businessman, Duke Droese was a binman etc. It was a part of his character, but it never relied on a sense of patriotism or national pride really.

Really? For me, his character just came across as a guy who had Scottish ancestry and showed it by wearing a kilt. Nothing else, didn't even have the accent. Even talked in promos about how he grew up alongside the Hart family in Canada. He's one of my favourites ever, but nothing to do with him purporting to be Scottish.

[Kaz Hayashi]

It’s a really interesting topic (wrestling / country not obviously associated with wrestling). 

Pat, in terms of Indian wrestling not being publicised outside of India, maybe this is the reason why WWE are missing the point? Maybe they have always taken things at face value with Mexican, and Canadian wrestlers. It was very obvious who fans liked. Maybe what they need to do is hire Indian staff who understand the tradition and what the audience want before guessing it’s a Canadian. I’m picking for the sake of it now though as I find it really fascinating. 

With Khali, I think we also have to accredit his popularity to the fact he’s 8’0 foot tall. Regardless of the sport, if he had any spot light at that height he’d still be a mega star.

[BomberPat]

2 minutes ago, Kaz Hayashi said:

It’s a really interesting topic (wrestling / country not obviously associated with wrestling). 

Pat, in terms of Indian wrestling not being publicised outside of India, maybe this is the reason why WWE are missing the point? Maybe they have always taken things at face value with Mexican, and Canadian wrestlers. It was very obvious who fans liked. Maybe what they need to do is hire Indian staff who understand the tradition and what the audience want before guessing it’s a Canadian. I’m picking for the sake of it now though as I find it really fascinating. 

With Khali, I think we also have to accredit his popularity to the fact he’s 8’0 foot tall. Regardless of the sport, if he had any spot light at that height he’d still be a mega star.

I think if they're as keen on global expansion as they seem to be, the key is to get more people on the ground locally - more along the lines of what the WWE UK show was purported to be, rather than just the odd tour. Obviously not a full schedule, as running multiple territories in different countries would be hugely financially prohibitive, but to have a bit more infrastructure on the ground in those countries, rather than trying to dictate to an Indian audience from an office in America. Khali's starting to promote in India again, they should be working alongside him, rather than running separate tours and hoping for the best - something akin to how they'd buddy up with SWS or WAR to co-promote shows in Japan in the '90s, perhaps.

 

You never quite know who's going to get over in unfamiliar territory, or why, though. The Von Erichs are massive in Israel, for example - Kevin even came out of retirement earlier this year to tag with his sons in a match in Tel Aviv. WCCW managed to get a TV deal in Israel and Lebanon, and apparently the Von Erichs are still a household name to this day, but who'd have guessed that would pan out? El Santo was huge in Turkey, though presumably more through his films than his wrestling. There's probably countless other examples like these, that unless the promoter is going to take an active interest in what's getting picked up on in other countries, you'd be hard pressed to predict.

[Kaz Hayashi]

On a complete tangent, it’s interesting you should mention the popularity of the Von Erichs in random places. Tornado was fucking massive around our end. Kids used to fight over who was going to be him in Andrew’s back garden royal rumble, which took place pretty much every night over the summer holiday. No joke, he was far more popular than Hogan and Warrior at one point.

Possibly just because he was on the cover of the wrestlefest 91 vhs box, and one of the kids brought it back with him from his holiday. I honestly can’t remember why he was though, it’s not like we had a plethora of matches to watch of his at the time.

[Keith Houchen]

Does Jinder have an Instagram account with pics of himself in a convenience store, or done an advert where he sneers at a soft toy?  I think we can pin down why he isn't Khali levels of wonderful.

[Snitsky's back acne]

Former Tough Enough winner Matt Cappotelli is undergoing treatment for a second bout of brain cancer, ten years after being given the all clear from brain cancer previously.

http://www.wdrb.com/story/37042925/video-former-wwe-superstar-from-louisville-wrestles-with-life-in-second-round-of-brain-cancer

 

[Kaz Hayashi]

That fucking sucks. Poor bastard.