The Fortean/paranormal/conspiracy thread

[CavemanLynn]

Any alien race will have the same problem to overcome as anyone today attempting to convert hardcore religious fundamentalists away from their literal interpretations of scriptures. The only way to do this is to have the fundamentalists confirm exactly what proof would be required for them to switch, so it becomes less confrontational and more explorative. Thing is, the vast majority of the time, you'll probably find this evidence would then be provided, only for the believers to decry it as faked or inconclusive, the same as Flat Earthers and climate change deniers.

In terms of an overall idea of a god-like entity or force, I'm fine with that (I personally find the idea of a being with human characteristics very limited, convenient, and dangerous), and it wouldn't surprise me if aliens did have a similar "safety net" for the limits of their scientific explorations.

[Astro Hollywood]

4 minutes ago, CavemanLynn said:

Any alien race will have the same problem to overcome as anyone today attempting to convert hardcore religious fundamentalists away from their literal interpretations of scriptures. The only way to do this is to have the fundamentalists confirm exactly what proof would be required for them to switch, so it becomes less confrontational and more explorative. Thing is, the vast majority of the time, you'll probably find this evidence would then be provided, only for the believers to decry it as faked or inconclusive, the same as Flat Earthers and climate change deniers.

Like with dinosaurs or evolution, of which the proof is indisputable, the fundamentalists have their catch-all get-out clause of "this is the Devil's trickery!" There will never be evidence to sway them, because it's not about evidence, it's about faith. If anything, I think you'd see them becoming even more vitriolic and firm in their stance, the way that the right wing fundamentalist nuts do now, in the face of anything that's seen to be undermining their faith, like the passing of liberal laws. If aliens did show up with evidence, some prick in a MAGA hat would probably try to shoot them.

Another interesting aspect is how the tinfoil hat brigade would deal with it. They're obsessed with conspiracies and cover-ups, but I wonder how they'd cope if aliens did land, and did the Space Hippie peace deal? "Stop your pollution and stop killing each other!" They'd probably say it was a false flag so the fake libtard alien-cucks could take away their guns.

[CavemanLynn]

Depressingly true. Even I admit that if aliens did visit, as much as I would tell you now I would welcome it and how life-affirming I would see it, the likely truth is that I would still be sceptical and treat it as a hoax. I would need to experience, possibly even go to and return from their home with independent evidence that I had indeed left Earth and the Solar system, before I would properly buy in.

[BomberPat]

The assumption is that alien neurology and psychology would have evolved in the same way that ours did. We have absolutely no way of knowing if that would be the case, or even if - assuming that "Earth-like" planets are out there harbouring intelligent life - the intelligent race would be mammalian. If the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out, mammals never would have moved out of their niche as little squirrel-type things to become the dominant land-borne race. Maybe, elsewhere, the intelligent species would be reptilian, or aquatic, or avian, or just about anything else. And, hell, who's to say we are the dominant species anyway? Maybe ants are the real rulers of this world, and we're just apes with a superiority complex.

Again, we don't know if the evolution of intelligent life on Earth is the norm, or a freak occurrence. We don't fully understand what intelligence is. We do know that there are countless points in our evolutionary history where if the climate had been slightly different, where if certain catastrophic events had not occurred, life likely would have moved in entirely different directions.

I find it astronomically (no pun intended) unlikely that evolution on another planet, even one functionally identical to Earth, would have followed the exact same pattern as ours, and resulted in intelligent hominids, with recognisable civilisation, with the same propensity towards drawing connections between phenomena (the root of any religious or superstitious belief), and the same use of language to develop storytelling. To me, that would be a stronger argument for religious beliefs or for intelligent design than against, because it would suggest that nature is working to a blueprint.

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by BomberPat

[CavemanLynn]

I don't assume they'll be hominid or grey-like, but certainly any attempt at communication would show a parity of development within our understanding of physics, if not using the same base elements.

Having said that, regarding your comment about ants, I'm sure I heard a myth/assertion that corn covers more of the planet than humans, and therefore crop circles were aliens waging war on the dominant Earth species, so... yeah. There's that.

[Keith Houchen]

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

 Maybe, elsewhere, the intelligent species would be reptilian,

[BomberPat]

18 minutes ago, CavemanLynn said:

I don't assume they'll be hominid or grey-like, but certainly any attempt at communication would show a parity of development within our understanding of physics, if not using the same base elements

Within our understanding of physics, yes, but I don't think that means there would be a parity of development in what constitutes communication or intelligence. I keep repeating this, but we don't fully grasp what intelligence is. Is it cognition, the ability to understand complex ideas, is it pattern recognition? An octopus appears to be intelligent, but has a nervous system entirely unlike ours. How do we quantify its intelligence, let alone attempt to communicate with it?

To assume communication is possible with an intelligent species from another planet is to assume that they have evolved similar neural frameworks to ourselves - and we have absolutely no idea how likely or unlikely that would be, because we have no framework to understand how evolution would work anywhere but Earth, and under the exact conditions it has already occurred on Earth. There are literally countless variables that have impacted the evolution of intelligent life on this planet, which we've had the opportunity to study for the span of human existence; who knows what curveballs got thrown into evolution elsewhere, if there is anything to evolve elsewhere. We don't know if intelligence, as we understand it, is something likely to evolve, or if sentience is a freak accident.

Again, I think that if we encounter a species from another planet that's intelligent as per our understanding, and particularly if they're capable of some form of communication, to me that's a massive win for the Intelligent Design theory - it suggests that evolution is somehow guided toward an end goal, that intelligent species capable of evolution are nature's blueprint to work towards. I don't believe that for a second, but if alien life had evolved in that fashion, I do believe it would do more to cause us to question the framework of our scientific beliefs than it would cause people to question or denounce their religious beliefs.

 

I like that crop circle idea! My point about ants was, to get even more pretentious about this, the idea of mankind as the "dominant species" is an anthropocentric one. We believe we are, because that's what we see. But to go back to my example of ants, there are one million of them to every one of us. They exist in almost every ecological niche imaginable, and are an astonishingly successful species everywhere they exist. Who's to say that an alien species wouldn't recognise them as the most dominant species on Earth, not these big lumbering giants wrecking the environment, and who's to say they'd be wrong to do so?

Now I'm remembering an old 2000AD Future Shocks comic where intelligent aliens visit Earth with a message of peace, only to be trodden on in someone's back garden.

[King Coconut]

49 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

An octopus appears to be intelligent, but has a nervous system entirely unlike ours. How do we quantify its intelligence, let alone attempt to communicate with it?

We wait until it develops an interstellar spacecraft.

[Onyx2]

Coincidentally, I read a great piece today speaking to why evolution will tend to a bipedal form. It's a gargantuan read but well thought-through.

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/a/2496

[BomberPat]

3 minutes ago, Onyx2 said:

Coincidentally, I read a great piece today speaking to why evolution will tend to a bipedal form. It's a gargantuan read but well thought-through.

https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/a/2496

I'm not doubting the science, but there's a few things that jump out at me;

Quote

Therefore, rough humanoid shapes are statistically more likely than non-humanoid on Earth-like worlds.

In what sense? "Rough humanoid shapes" aren't statistically the most likely, or the most common, on Earth, so why assume they would be on Earth-like worlds?

I agree with the points it's making about parallel evolution, about why certain forms will likely always evolve because they are the most efficient for purpose, but the assumption that humanoid shapes are "more likely" doesn't work for me. I get that what's implicit in that statement is "intelligent life" but, again, how do we define intelligence?

The underlying message is that the rules of physics would apply on any other world, so life would develop in a way not drastically different to on Earth, but the underpinning assumption is that man is the dominant species and in some way an "end goal" that evolution has been working towards. To me, that's a dated anthropocentric view that sees us as the pinnacle of species. There's no guarantee that evolution would follow the same paths to reach a humanoid form on a planet identical to Earth; when you factor in potential environmental and atmospheric differences (which the post does touch on), I think it's a fool's game to suggest that humanoids are the likely end result.

[Carbomb]

I think the only thing I'd be certain about regarding intelligent/evolved life on other planets is that the apex species would have to have prehensile limbs; the ability to manipulate one's surroundings has been key to humans adapting and advancing to the level of being potentially able to travel between planets (if we ever do manage it before we blow ourselves up).

Additionally, the ability to reason (whether that's a marker of intelligence or not) to make counter-intuitive but productive decisions, instead of operating purely on instinct, would have to factor in somewhere, I think. Proto-moralities have been observed in other species on Earth (dogs, for example, have been observed to have a sense of fair play), so a level of complexity of reasoning so as to be able to form a cohesive, structured society would be essential.

Other than those things, I think it's anyone's guess as to what sort of form extra-terrestrial life would take.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Carbomb

[BomberPat]

I've been trying to justify the amount of money I'm spending on streaming services by watching any available guff on there - I signed up to Amazon Prime for American Gods, and it's likely to be the first service I drop, followed by Now TV after Twin Peaks is finished.

Now, while making the best use of Now TV has seen me watching a bunch of old Smell of Reeves and Mortimer episodes, making the best use of Amazon Prime is late night binge watching of its fine assortment of super low budget utterly dreadful conspiracy "documentaries". I'm talking YouTube basement dweller production levels passed off as the real deal.

It's almost all alien stuff, which isn't really my favourite area of conspiracy nonsense, but plenty ties into Ancient Aliens bollocks, and I find that thoroughly entertaining. It's staggering how committed these people are able to sound when making points that fall apart with the tiniest bit of scrutiny. Great fun, if you can stomach hearing the word "Annunaki" a hundred times a night.

There's a documentary about Hollow Earth theories on there, too, which starts off sounding a little smug but at least somewhat open-minded, and then ten minutes in you realise it's made by the Hollow Earth Society, who might have a vested interest in this thing.

[Egg Shen]

if you still have Now TV, they have an app available in the store which is basically a collection of alien & ufo documentaries, it's free you just need to download it...why's its there buried in between pretty normal apps im not quite sure but that might be a worth a look for you pat.

[King Coconut]

Hollow earth!? What the fuck is wrong with humanity?

[BomberPat]

28 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

if you still have Now TV, they have an app available in the store which is basically a collection of alien & ufo documentaries, it's free you just need to download it...why's its there buried in between pretty normal apps im not quite sure but that might be a worth a look for you pat.

Might check it out, though - despite the impression I may have given in this thread - UFOs are pretty low down my list of Fortean interests; give me some good cryptozoology stories or a rain of frogs any day. That said, if it's a free app, it's got to be worth a punt.

25 minutes ago, King Coconut said:

Hollow earth!? What the fuck is wrong with humanity?

Bonkers stuff, isn't it? This is the sort of Fortean/conspiracy-minded thing I find fascinating; the sheer extent of the weirdness people are prepared to believe, and the logical hoops they'll jump through to try and make it sound plausible.

It's why I love watching a lot of the Ancient Aliens stuff, even if it invariably ends up with me shouting at the screen about how wrong they are. There's a documentary on Youtube that's just two blokes picking apart every single false claim made on History Channel's Ancient Aliens series, and it's about three hours long, and really lacking in the kind of wit and charm that should make that kind of thing entertaining, but it becomes fun just through sheer absurdity. You find yourself laughing at how preposterous it is that people are making these claims, and at how exasperated these two fellas must have been to sit down and a record a feature-length video just to say, "no, actually".

The Hollow Earth thing is great - far more interesting than Flat Earth types! - because it's a conspiracy really in the David Icke mold, where it's really a case of why have one or two conspiracies when you can have seven? They just have to tie every other conspiracy together, so even if they ever did have a point, it's lost in amongst all that fluff. Cryptids? They live inside the Earth. UFOs? They come from inside the Earth. Disappeared aircraft? Inside the Earth, mate. Secret Nazi bases? Hollow Earth, that.

The other thing they have in common with Icke, and the Ancient Aliens lot, is this bizarre assumption that all ancient myth is supposed to be a factual account. So any mention of somewhere inside the Earth must be true, but also any other mythical land ever mentioned - Shangri-La, Garden of Eden, Atlantis - all obviously inside the Earth, aren't they?

 

There's a lot in there about the secret diary of Richard Byrd, which is interesting, but a very obvious hoax.

Edited July 3, 2017 by BomberPat