Paid Members air_raid Posted June 10 Paid Members Share Posted June 10 (edited) 15 hours ago, wandshogun09 said: He was paid well but that’s where the positives ended. It’s a company that got Bret at the end of 97, when he was still at the top of his game and was finishing up probably the best year of his career, plus he was coming off the whole Montreal debacle and chinning Vince McMahon - he was at his hottest and they pissed it all away from pretty much his first night in and rendered him to being just another guy on the roster within 6 months. Add to that, putting him in the ring with the big lummox who ended his career and even things like how neglectful they were with the whole trapdoor incident that fucked Bulldog up. You can see why he’d have nothing good to say about the place. The whole experience must bring back nothing but negative memories. How any promoter can fuck up getting Bret Hart at that time in his career is actually astounding. Yet you can probably count the good things they did with him in that run on three fingers. Yeah they paid him, but they also squandered, diminished and prematurely ended what time he had left as a wrestler. Then you’ve got a worm like Bischoff knocking him in interviews and stuff. No wonder Bret has such a negative attitude about his time there. I mean, it's truly a remarkable story there. They were able to start talking about him coming in from 10th November Nitro and it's a quite frankly astonishing story of nonsense. Doing the "will he won't he" stuff around the nWo kind of makes sense, but building his first PPV appearance around referring a match seems remarkably underwhelming for a wrestler's wrestler. Follow that up, and him helping Sting beat Hogan went over pretty good... even if it was executed badly by Nick Patrick's "fast count" making Sting and Bret look like bullies cheating the Hulk out of a clean win. Regardless, setting up Bret and as anti-nWo babyface was a sensible move which opened up lots of fresh opponents for him into 1998... so fairly obviously his first PPV opponent was fellow anti-nWo babyface and traditionalist, Ric Flair, so they could have the same match they had a dozen times in the WWF. Right down to Bret taking his straps down in an action replay of the Smack Em Whack Em home straight. Still, a win's a win. They immediately capitalised on Bret's momentum by having him not wrestle on two of the next three PPVs then turning him heel and embarking on a long-running and boring "He's a heel but he isn't actually in the nWo... except he often tags with Hogan.... and sometimes uses nWo music." Skip to early 1999. He does a clean pinfall job to Booker T on Nitro because they tell him he needs to prove to "the boys" that he's willing to "do business," even though its going to lead to nothing and they've got Toronto on the horizon where they plan to use Bret in a commanding fashion. According to Bret himself on his RF shoot, he later has to exercise his creative control clause for the first time to refuse to lose to Dean Malenko and the Texas Cloverleaf on TV. Then come Toronto there's the infamous pitching to Bret that after he does the breastplate angle with Hogan, Hulk comes out and clobbers him, leaving him laying in Canada. Bret's response to Bischoff is amazing. "So am I going to be working with Hogan now?" "No." "Is Hogan going to be working with Goldberg now?" "No." "So why the fuck would we do that then?" ..... the description of Bret and Bischoff going to talk to Terry and a bemused Hulk just going "He's right, I don't need to be out there" is amazing too. Like Bischoff just trying to make Bret look bad and playing him and Hogan off against each other just like Vince did. Shall we gloss over WCW not booking Canada for over a year after signing Bret Hart then booking him to "quit" on TV instead of a match they could have heavily promoted? Or... how about bringing him back, having him do an emotional and rewarding match with Benoit in the Kemper Arena, then having him win the big belt in Canada, then deciding "Fuck it, we need to turn this guy heel"? These are only the highlights that I can type out from memory. There's plenty more garbage but it hurts my brain. Poor Bret. Edited June 11 by air_raid I’m standing next to a mountain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted June 10 Paid Members Share Posted June 10 (edited) Yep. Just clueless. I was thinking of that RF shoot while I was typing my post as well. Another story I liked was when Bret and Sting had that brawl all through the backstage area on a Nitro in the build up to their match at Halloween Havoc 98. They were supposed to beat the shit out of each other to the point they’re both battered and laid out backstage and the show ends with ambulances coming and taking them both to hospital. Except WCW forgot to arrange for the ambulance to come so the show faded to black with Bret and Sting just snoozing by the vending machines. Thinking back, there were so many dream matches for Bret in WCW at the time and it could’ve been a great run if they just let Bret Hart be Bret Hart and not try to force so much convoluted bollocks into every single segment. Bret vs Hogan could’ve been a series spanning multiple PPVs. Bret vs Sting was one of the ultimate babyface dream matches throughout the early-mid 90s, Sharpshooter vs Scorpion Deathlock etc, yet it was never presented or delivered as anything particularly special. Bret vs Eddie and Bret vs Jericho never happened at all. Bret vs Benoit was about the only one that really clicked and even that took Owen dying for it to be given the TV time and spotlight it deserved. They fumbled him so bad. The fact they actually tried to book him to lose clean by submission to Stinko Malenko sums up what idiots they were. Edited June 10 by wandshogun09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Â 22 minutes ago, air_raid said: These are only the highlights that I can type out from memory. There's plenty more garbage but it hurts my brain. Poor Bret. Great post! Has Bret ever said anything as to why he missed the three PPVs after the Flair match? Was he not contracted to do every PPV? Also, is there any case where he should have used more of his creative control and not gone along with the rubbish initial heel turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted June 10 Paid Members Share Posted June 10 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dai said: Has Bret ever said anything as to why he missed the three PPVs after the Flair match? From what I remember he was asked in a shoot interview why he wasn’t on those PPVs and just said something like “because that’s the way they booked it” while basically shrugging his shoulders and looking baffled. I think he summed up his WCW experience in that same interview when he said “I found myself scratching my head from the moment I got there until the moment I left”. He did wrestle Curt Hennig on Uncensored, which I think was the next PPV after the Flair match. But yeah, he was off the next few in a row. Just nonsense. Edited June 10 by wandshogun09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCW Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Not to blame Bret for WCW's inherent shiteness; but if Bret had creative control same as Hogan/Nash why didn't he just tell Bischoff that 'I want to work with Sting/properly with Benoit/ Eddie etc and this is how I want it laid out'? surely that was the whole point of having creative control in the first place like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 3 minutes ago, DCW said: Not to blame Bret for WCW's inherent shiteness; but if Bret had creative control same as Hogan/Nash why didn't he just tell Bischoff that 'I want to work with Sting/properly with Benoit/ Eddie etc and this is how I want it laid out'? surely that was the whole point of having creative control in the first place like. I'm guessing he had it written in because he was a big ol' name and if he hadn't, that den of wolves would have tried to fuck him harder. I know we all love the fella these days (never should've stopped) but Bret never seemed much of a 'but I got creative control so I'll abuse that' (well aware of course that Montreal happened and he had reasonable CC there, but there was A LOT going on for him to play that) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted June 10 Paid Members Share Posted June 10 (edited) 14 hours ago, wandshogun09 said: He did wrestle Curt Hennig on Uncensored, which I think was the next PPV after the Flair match. But yeah, he was off the next few in a row. Just nonsense. We’re both wrong. He missed SuperBrawl VIII, worked Uncensored with Curt (another WWF repeat rather than something new) then missed Spring Stampede while Curt had a mess with Smithers with Anvil and Rick Rude ringside, turning heel the next night to (ugh) help Hogan win the belt back from Randy Savage who won it one night earlier (ugh). He then worked Savage at Slamboree, tagged with Hogan to beat Savage and Piper at Great American Bash, then did a daft non finish for the TV title (???) against Booker at Bash at the Beach. From there teaming with Hogan at Fall Brawl having missed Road Wild and a one night fake babyface turn (ugh) prior to showing his true colours on the way to his match with Sting at Halloween Havoc and wrestling DDP at World War 3 by which time he’d started getting injured on and off. Edited June 11 by air_raid Chop it down with the edge of my hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Jesse Posted June 11 Paid Members Share Posted June 11 21 hours ago, DCW said: Not to blame Bret for WCW's inherent shiteness; but if Bret had creative control same as Hogan/Nash why didn't he just tell Bischoff that 'I want to work with Sting/properly with Benoit/ Eddie etc and this is how I want it laid out'? surely that was the whole point of having creative control in the first place like. Not sure how those are laid out, so I could be off-base here but I'd imagine it's more of a veto power than it is actual control. So they can present you ideas and you can tell them to piss off, but you can't just lay out your idea and have them forced to go with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted June 11 Paid Members Share Posted June 11 Plus if you’ve got creative control in your contract but so have a bunch of the other top guys, it’s not so straightforward because all those guys have a say. In late 90s WCW, these fuckers were negotiating finishes like it was life or death every Monday night. Even just the way Bret tells the story of trying to get that Goldberg angle with the steel chest plate thing to be given the green light sounds like it was a right ballache. Having to negotiate it with Bischoff, while Bischoff’s trying to insinuate Hogan into it for some reason, then having to go to Hogan to basically get his blessing to do it without him being out there, then having to talk sense into a paranoid Goldberg who was listening to all sorts of stuff from different voices in the locker room about how the angle was gonna “kill him”. He described it as basically a miracle that they actually got the angle done. Even if you’ve got creative control in your contract, if you’re having to deal with that shite every time you’re pitching ideas I can see why you’d just get exhausted with the whole thing. Plus, Bret’s creative control in the last year of his WWF run didn’t exactly end well for him so he probably didn’t wanna push that too much. Unless he felt like he absolutely had to for his own self preservation, like them trying to put Malenko over him clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted June 11 Paid Members Share Posted June 11 I think Bret had basically lost his heart for the business after Montreal so probably couldn't even be arsed to fight for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 The best there is, the best there was and the best supercut there ever will be.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaitoRyo Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 27 minutes ago, Chili said: The best there is, the best there was and the best supercut there ever will be.  That is pure, unadulterated Hitman and I love it. Best beefer in wrestling, bar none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCJ Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 3 hours ago, LaGoosh said: I think Bret had basically lost his heart for the business after Montreal so probably couldn't even be arsed to fight for himself. Pretty much my take on this. In Bischoff’s defence, Bret was a different person after the screw job and couldn’t be arsed with wrestling anymore. From what I recall, Bret’s best WCW run came when Russo had the book. At least Bret had a main event push when that happened. Even if it ended badly for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gmoney Posted June 11 Paid Members Share Posted June 11 5 hours ago, Chili said: The best there is, the best there was and the best supercut there ever will be.  I've had similar exit interviews for certain jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted June 12 Author Share Posted June 12 11 hours ago, LCJ said: Pretty much my take on this. In Bischoff’s defence, Bret was a different person after the screw job and couldn’t be arsed with wrestling anymore. From what I recall, Bret’s best WCW run came when Russo had the book. At least Bret had a main event push when that happened. Even if it ended badly for him. Does Bret ever really talk about Russo? I'd imagine he wasn't a fan of his wrestling philosophy but liked him for his Hogan and Goldberg hate.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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