CavemanLynn Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 hours ago, d-d-d-dAz said: This is pretty good if you have a long commute or tricky toilet planned, and want to read about America's fatigue-ridden backsliding into a Trump sequel;Â https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/can-joe-biden-win-2024-presidential-election-anti-trump-coalition.html That article covers the main tactic the Right consistently deploy over the Left - shout baseless insanity into the world, then watch the Left spend more time and effort trying to disprove than present their own case. It attempts to show the Left as feckless appeasers and the Right as principled doers. I also think, in America, it essentially weaponises the accepted norms of political debate against itself; Trump's success is based in his disregard for political procedures and his disrespect for his opponents, deliberately antagonising through accusation and interruption, then childishly shrugging. It works, makes good copy and gets clicks, but it's toxic, bigoted, and sociopathic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 12 minutes ago, CavemanLynn said: That article covers the main tactic the Right consistently deploy over the Left - shout baseless insanity into the world, then watch the Left spend more time and effort trying to disprove than present their own case. It attempts to show the Left as feckless appeasers and the Right as principled doers. I also think, in America, it essentially weaponises the accepted norms of political debate against itself; Trump's success is based in his disregard for political procedures and his disrespect for his opponents, deliberately antagonising through accusation and interruption, then childishly shrugging. It works, makes good copy and gets clicks, but it's toxic, bigoted, and sociopathic. Whilst I don't presume to say you're wrong, the NY Mag is a Liberal paper, fairly closely aligned with the Democrat establishment and you're calling them right wing, childish, toxic, bigoted and sociopathic. That, via the back door, suggests to me there's something to the thesis that the ideological left is going to struggle to rally around Biden at a time when Trump panic had faded. The US has always struggled with this, as they don't really have a left wing. Not in the mainstream, and not with any natural electoral base. You can see that in how effective the Republicans have been in casting Biden as a socialist Marxist, when in reality Biden is several clicks right of even our current Labour Party. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, d-d-d-dAz said: The US has always struggled with this, as they don't really have a left wing. Not in the mainstream, and not with any natural electoral base. You can see that in how effective the Republicans have been in casting Biden as a socialist Marxist, when in reality Biden is several clicks right of even our current Labour Party. Not just Biden, though. Almost every recent Democrat president or political figure gets called a Marxist or socialist, despite very few of them actually being so. The only ones I know about who could realistically claim to hold actual socialist political values are Sanders and AOC. I'm sure there are more. It's obvious to the point where it doesn't need stating, but might as well call it what it is: the American right haven't a single clue what Marxism or socialism is, and they just use those terms, utilising the dread conditioned into the American public by decades of Cold War fear-mongering, as a quick way of denouncing anyone they disagree with, be they socialist or no. We have a little of it here, like that cretin Richard Tice calling Starmer and Sunak (even more ridiculously) "the socialist twins". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gmoney Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 12 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: NY Mag is a Liberal paper, fairly closely aligned with the Democrat establishment and you're calling them right wing, childish, toxic, bigoted and sociopathic. Hmmm, doesn't sound like the Democratic establishment, right kids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavemanLynn Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 31 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Whilst I don't presume to say you're wrong, the NY Mag is a Liberal paper, fairly closely aligned with the Democrat establishment and you're calling them right wing, childish, toxic, bigoted and sociopathic. That, via the back door, suggests to me there's something to the thesis that the ideological left is going to struggle to rally around Biden at a time when Trump panic had faded. The US has always struggled with this, as they don't really have a left wing. Not in the mainstream, and not with any natural electoral base. You can see that in how effective the Republicans have been in casting Biden as a socialist Marxist, when in reality Biden is several clicks right of even our current Labour Party. I think my post was badly written then - my first sentence referred to the article, but "It" thereafter was intended to be "the Right." Does this clarify/change things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 I think the article is broadly right, but I don't know necessarily that that's a bad thing - more a feature of the democratic system. I think 'the left' do hold themselves to a higher moral standard and are less willing to rally round the candidate for the sake of winning elections than the Right have historically been. A feature of conservatism - especially in the US - has always been an ability to sacrifice principles for power when push comes to shove. If you were on the left, you'd say that was absolutely right and you shouldn't have to compromise on your principles for the sake of winning elections. For a long time the choices, in America at least, between Republican and Democrat weren't that pronounced - I guess the reason it's an issue people are looking at now is the alternative is Trump, which is very different, so people are wondering whether people will abstain, or vote for a Third Party, even if it results in Trump. I think it all feeds in to my earlier belief that Biden will find it harder to summon a coalition of Anti Trump voices, because the fear of Trump isn't as overwhelming and other issues have cracked his standing with the more progressive voters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Johnny Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) On 12/23/2023 at 9:32 AM, d-d-d-dAz said: It's just the death of serious grown up politics on both sides of the Atlantic, and its heartbreaking. Apologies for dragging this back up but do people still use that phrase unironically? I thought it was just a good zinger to have in the barrel for when Wes Streeting says he’ll get ChatGPT to do gallbladder removals. Edited January 22 by Little Johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Little Johnny said: Apologies for dragging this back up but do people still use that phrase unironically? I thought it was just a good zinger to have the barrel for when Wes Streeting says he’ll get ChatGPT to do gallbladder removals. Yes. It denotes a desire for people who take governing seriously. Though, admittedly, its been co-opted by people on all sides. I think it's even the Green Party's tagline these days. In a world of charlatans and populists, you need to find some way of separating out the boring people who won't drive countries off a cliff. Wes Streeting is a pretty good communicator, and seems to do a good job selling Labour - he looks to be a key part of the team that's going to give us a Labour government again. Do people not like him now? Edited January 22 by d-d-d-dAz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Do people not like him now? I've never liked him. He's a fucking weasel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 5 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: He's a fucking weasel. Which is why he's 9 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: a key part of the team that's going to give us a Labour government again  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Johnny Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 9 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Yes. It denotes a desire for people who take governing seriously. Though, admittedly, its been co-opted by people on all sides. I think it's even the Green Party's tagline these days. In a world of charlatans and populists, you need to find some way of separating out the boring people who won't drive countries off a cliff. Wes Streeting is a pretty good communicator, and seems to do a good job selling Labour - he looks to be a key part of the team that's going to give us a Labour government again. Do people not like him now? What's happened to you, d-d-d-dAz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Healys Chutney Spoon Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 6 minutes ago, Little Johnny said: What's happened to you, d-d-d-dAz? Grew up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Little Johnny said: What's happened to you, d-d-d-dAz? I've always wobbled somewhere round the middle to centre left, and I'm fascinated by the collapse of compromise in politics and the impact on democracy. For example, phrases like 'fucking weasel' or talking about sociopaths or whatever is something I find very interesting, especially when they're aimed at people on the same side of the centre point as you. It's a shame though, as I think a Labour government in this country and a Democrat administration in the US are usually better than a Conservative or Republican alternative, but I think quality progressive voices are excluding themselves from getting involved in search of ideological purity. I wonder if the concept of broad church political parties is a relic, in some ways. Edited January 22 by d-d-d-dAz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 38 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: people on the same side of the centre point as you. Do you think the centre point has remained stable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 52 minutes ago, Chris B said: Do you think the centre point has remained stable? No, but neither have the parties so its not really important either way. There's no argument that in a two horse race between Sunak and Starmer, Sunak is somehow closer to the left than Starmer. The centre point is the point at which you divide the two major parties effectively. If you're on the left in this country, Streeting is on the same side of that point to you - however far apart you might be. The 'left', as it were, in the United States is still represented by the Democrats so even if you're an actual member of the American Communists, Biden is still the mainstream candidate on your side of the fence - even if again you're a million miles apart. That said, I'd still say we have a more obvious reflection of a mainstream political left in this country. The centre point of US Politics is further right than in the UK, and the Democrats in the main hug closer to their centre. There's a weird trend in UK politics where you see our conservatives backing Democrat candidates. Both Clinton's and Obama had a tonne of Tory support.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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