SuperBacon Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 4 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: There's no argument that in a two horse race between Sunak and Starmer, Sunak is somehow closer to the left than Starmer. I've never seen someone say this, and can't quite comprehend it. Not a criticism as such but I'm stunned.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Johnny Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 hour ago, Big'Olympic_Hero'Pete said: Grew up? I'm not above reminding you you made this post after a few years of Sensible Hands at the wheel. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: I've never seen someone say this, and can't quite comprehend it. Not a criticism as such but I'm stunned.  Which is my point, right? If you're on the left, the major leader of the Labour Party will always be on the same side of the centre point as you are even if you don't like them as the parties and the centre point tend to move together. Unless we're saying that the Labour Party are 'right of centre', which they're not. That's all I was saying, that whether the centre point has moved or not is often irrelevant as the parties move with it as part of the same political tides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Which is my point, right? If you're on the left, the major leader of the Labour Party will always be on the same side of the centre point as you are even if you don't like them as the parties and the centre point tend to move together. Unless we're saying that the Labour Party are 'right of centre', which they're not. That's all I was saying, that whether the centre point has moved or not is often irrelevant as the parties move with it as part of the same political tides. Like I said, its not a criticism at all, you're free to think what you want. I've just never seen anyone say that, that's all.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Labour are closer to me politically than the tories in the same way that Australia is geographically closer to me than New Zealand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, SuperBacon said: Like I said, its not a criticism at all, you're free to think what you want. I've just never seen anyone say that, that's all.  No, neither have I. That was my point. I initially said if you're on the left, Wes Streeting/Keir Starmer are on the same side of centre as you. I was asked whether I thought the centre point had moved, to which I replied it didn't matter as the centre point follows the parties (or vice versa), so you're still on the same side of the centre as Starmer's Labour currently. Unless you're saying that you think Starmer is leading a right of centre Party? Which I've never seen said by anyone, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Just now, Keith Houchen said: Labour are closer to me politically than the tories in the same way that Australia is geographically closer to me than New Zealand. Sure, but it's still closer. That's the only point I've made and seem to have offended people. Going back to the original point, that seemingly widening gap between the left and the elected leaders of the mainstream 'left' is what is causing alarm in the US, as people are worried that it'll mean they don't show out for Biden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 3 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: No, neither have I. That was my point. I initially said if you're on the left, Wes Streeting/Keir Starmer are on the same side of centre as you. I was asked whether I thought the centre point had moved, to which I replied it didn't matter as the centre point follows the parties (or vice versa), so you're still on the same side of the centre as Starmer's Labour currently. Unless you're saying that you think Starmer is leading a right of centre Party? Which I've never seen said by anyone, either. I think a point is being missed here Daz. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, it's just something I have never seen said before, that's all. It shocked me that someone said it. That's it. And no I don't necessarily think Starmer and his party are right of the centre. Edit: and I'm not offended. No idea where that's come from. Edited January 22 by SuperBacon Didn't see the post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Just now, d-d-d-dAz said: Sure, but it's still closer. That's the only point I've made and seem to have offended people.  I don’t think anyone is offended, just saying it’s irrelevant because of the distance. Like how people on the left are closer to UKIP than NF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Sure, but it's still closer. That's the only point I've made and seem to have offended people. I wouldn't say it's offended me, but as a leftie it's mystifying whenever people of similar position to you try to argue it when this reasoning doesn't appear to have been factored into the thinking of people who actively sabotaged Corbyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Just now, SuperBacon said: I'm not saying you're wrong or right, it's just something I have never seen said before, that's all. It shocked me that someone said it. That's it. I'm just unclear what shocked you. For the avoidance of doubt I was making the point that no one can say Sunak is to the left of Starmer, ergo Starmer is the candidate of the mainstream Left even if as @Keith Houchen says its the difference between Australia and New Zealand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, d-d-d-dAz said: I'm just unclear what shocked you. For the avoidance of doubt I was making the point that no one can say Sunak is to the left of Starmer, ergo Starmer is the candidate of the mainstream Left even if as @Keith Houchen says its the difference between Australia and New Zealand. I’d disagree that Starmer is the candidate for the mainstream left. It’s more accurate to say the mainstream left don’t have a candidate and it’s a matter of how much they’re prepared to compromise. Much like with Biden, I guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Just now, Carbomb said: I wouldn't say it's offended me, but as a leftie it's mystifying whenever people of similar position to you try to argue it when this reasoning doesn't appear to have been factored into the thinking of people who actively sabotaged Corbyn. I've said before that Corbyn was mistreated by the Labour Party in Parliament. I don't think he was a good leader, but I think he should have been allowed to succeed or fail on his own merits, not because a cabal of MP's decided he wasn't up to it. And @Keith Houchen that point about there being no difference is the point of the original article, that that dividing line between Trump and Biden has faded and now people aren't so sure how big the difference is. How Biden rebuilds that coalition is the interesting thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Just now, Keith Houchen said: I’d disagree that Starmer is the candidate for the mainstream left. It’s more accurate to say the mainstream left don’t have a candidate and it’s a matter of how much they’re prepared to compromise. Much like with Biden, I guess Given the Labour Party and Democrats are seen as the Mainstream Left, are you saying they've gone right of centre? How is that combated? I'm aware of the thread we're in, so in the US specifically do you think a third party is a permissable option if it leads to Trump? Do you think from a Left perspective Trump and Biden are essentially the same? Be interested to get your take as to what you'd do if you were a socialist in America right now, knowing you could vote third party or not vote, but the result could be Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 22 Paid Members Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, d-d-d-dAz said: I've said before that Corbyn was mistreated by the Labour Party in Parliament. I don't think he was a good leader, but I think he should have been allowed to succeed or fail on his own merits, not because a cabal of MP's decided he wasn't up to it. Then I appreciate that, because, in all honesty, that has been a particular point of frustration to me: no-one ever seems to answer this question when it's asked of them, and it's treated like a minor issue. To me, that is the crux of what the Labour Party needs to address if they want to win the left of the party back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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