Loki Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) No more or less innocent than the Israeli people! Civilians on both sides are the innocent victims. Both populations have voted in warmongering leaders as well. Edited February 1 by Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Just now, Loki said: No more or less innocent than the Israeli people! Civilians on both sides are the innocent victims. It's one of the great tragedies of the conflict, that it's entrenched a cycle of rewarding ever-increasing hatred. Netanyahu is only possible because of the conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted February 1 Paid Members Share Posted February 1 18 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Netanyahu is only possible because of the conflict. A conflict that wouldn't exist if Palestine hadn't been forced to move aside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said: A conflict that wouldn't exist if Palestine hadn't been forced to move aside. These attempts to reduce this to simplistic black and white arguments are pointless. Things happened before 1948, things have happened after 1948. What you're effectively saying in this reductionist statement is that Israel has no right to exist because it didn't exist before 1948. Guess what? The current Syrian state didn't exist before 1946 and was carved out of the French Mandate in a similar manner to Israel, are we still referring back to that when we talk about the current political situation in Syria? Palestine wasn't forced to move aside, Palestine didn't exist and neither did Israel. The whole point of the two state solution is to try and start from a first principle that BOTH states have a right to exist, regardless of the circumstances of their creation. An Israeli or Palestinian citizen of 2024 is almost certainly born long after the First Arab-Israeli War, the 6 Day War and all the other myriad chapters of this conflict. They deserve a solution to the situation that exists now, which is the result of hundreds if not thousands of years of history that needs to be understood but not cherry-picked in a simplistic blame game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 hours ago, Loki said: And you wonder why people might not wish to engage in discussion of this topic! You’re not suggesting what I said isn’t the case, are you? I even clarified what I meant! And again, as it seems to be missed, when @BigJag was saying how nobody seemed to be talking about it, he meant people he knew. Not what’s being reported in the media, he meant who he knew personally. 46 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Whilst I agree with the principle and spirit of this, Hamas did win a Parliamentary election in 2006/7 - at which point they seized control of Gaza. The median age of Gaza is 18. So many Gazans know nothing except life under Hamas and weren’t born when they seized power. Anyone holding the population of Gaza responsible for Hamas is wrong. @Chest Rockwell Personally, I use Twitter to link to stories because people can then have an understanding as to what the article is, as opposed to just the URL, so they know what they’re clicking, or choose not to click. I think it’s better that way. Look at the death thread as an example, Pete used to just post the url and sometimes you wouldn’t know who it was about. An embedded tweet usually has a headline and a picture which makes it easier for who views it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 11 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: The median age of Gaza is 18. So many Gazans know nothing except life under Hamas and weren’t born when they seized power. Anyone holding the population of Gaza responsible for Hamas is wrong. Again, whilst I don't disagree, it's not how people work is it? Most trouble in the world is predicated on issues that arose long before most of us were even a bullet being shot from our father's pistol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted February 1 Moderators Share Posted February 1 Yeah the point on sourcing news from twitter was secondary to the point about using the comments and discussion on there as a representation of what the general public think. I don't like twitter but i wouldn't discount it as a medium for news entirely. As ever you need to look at the actual publication, not the platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 18 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Again, whilst I don't disagree, it's not how people work is it? Most trouble in the world is predicated on issues that arose long before most of us were even a bullet being shot from our father's pistol. No it isn’t how people work, but it doesn't change that they’re wrong for blaming the population for Hamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 51 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Again, whilst I don't disagree, it's not how people work is it? Most trouble in the world is predicated on issues that arose long before most of us were even a bullet being shot from our father's pistol. It's why trying to point fingers at anyone or take definitive sides in a conflict like this is just a fool's errand. For all but the last tiny proportion of human history, ownership has been decided by force of arms. The Jews took this land by force from the British, who took it from the Germans, who took it from the Ottomans, who took it from the Crusaders, who took it from the Seljuks, who took it from the Byzantines, who inherited it from the Romans (who took it from each other), who took it from the Persians, who took it from the Egyptians, who took it from the Israelis, who took it from the Caananites, who took it from the Hittites, who took it from the Mesopotamians, and on and on back to when a Neanderthal stepped out of his cave on the banks of a particularly fertile river in the Levant, looked at his neighbour Ug's slightly larger cave next door and thought "I'll have that!" I might as well parade through the centre of London with a T-Shirt on that reads "Free Ug" for all the impact it will have on Gaza in 2024. Since 1945 and the creation of the UN we're experimenting with the radical idea of resolving conflicts by the force of international consensus and diplomacy rather than war (coincidentally since we created weapons powerful enough to scour the face of the earth clean). It's not going very well, but it's hard and requires a lot of people to put aside prejudices and power and be awkwardly "both sides" about emotive issues, so it's never going to be easy, and I still prefer it to the alternative. And this is why I shouldn't discuss international politics on Twitter or even here, because my thoughts won't fit neatly into a sendentious homily to be retweeted, so I'm out and am off to read about men in pants fake fighting. Edited February 1 by Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 I'm not really all that clued up on what's been going on of late with the conflict, but what I will say is that I've seen some rather alarming anti-semitism in my travels, and that's quite alarming. I think many (not all) are using the conflict as a means to push their anti-Jewish agenda, which is quite saddening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 6 minutes ago, David said: but what I will say is that I've seen some rather alarming anti-semitism in my travels, and that's quite alarming. Which involved being alarmed by alarming antisemitism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 minute ago, Keith Houchen said: Which involved being alarmed by alarming antisemitism You can never be too alarmed by it all, Keith. Emphasis on alarmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 1 hour ago, David said: You can never be too alarmed by it all, Keith. Emphasis on alarmed. In all seriousness, you’re right and it can be easily missed. Years back I went to a reading by a Palestinian writer and poet whose name escapes me (she went by one name) and afterwards there was a discussion. One unassuming man was saying how horrified he was by what Israel was doing and it led him to stop buying from Jewish businesses. It almost went unchecked but someone said to him he has to remember that not every Israeli is Jewish and not every Jew is Israeli. The guy dismissed it with a “Yeah yeah but you know what I mean” and thought he’d only misspoke instead of showing textbook (albeit unaware)antisemitism. We are very quick to roll our eyes at “BUT DO YOU CONDEMN HAMAS” when it’s trotted out, and rightly so. Much like someone Jewish isn’t responsible for the war crimes and murder of the IOF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted February 1 Paid Members Share Posted February 1 Hi. Thank you everyone for your input. I apologise if my ham-fisted method made people uncomfortable or upset. That wasn't the intention. This place is fantastic for this type of discussion, and long may it continue. Just reading the last few pages has expanded what I know of this topic. It can be a bit too easy to be sent down a particular track with the forms of information that are available to us. I try to curate my information streams quite tightly. On this particular subject I was finding that my view of the subject was quite narrow. As if the lens was too focused and needed to be pulled back for a more expanded view point. We can all see the suffering of the Palestinian people and the actions of a state that seems intent on creating more suffering for them. Neither Hamas nor Israel can claim a moral high ground here. The solution would be for everyone to co-exist. Unfortunately there are a myriad of subversive elements that will not allow that to happen. Sadly, the more you learn. The further the realisation sets in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 You speak in very short sentences. It often reads like a promo. Not a criticism, just an observation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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