Loki Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: I never said any attack was justified, you did. I’m saying how atrocities by the two are framed completely differently. I absolutely believe that the rape, mutilation and murder of hundreds of Israeli citizens in their own country justified a response, yes. You'd have to be callous to an extreme to expect any country to just ignore that. I'm also very clear that the scale of the response has been wildly disproportionate. I agree with you that when the Palestinians respond with violence to illegal acts committed by the IDF or settlers, it's generally reported differently in the Western media, but it's certainly not the case in Arabic news agencies. And in fairness, some Israeli news agencies take a harder line on their own side as well. Personally I expect the Israelis to be more disciplined as they're the ostensible Western, responsible democracy. As ever, a plague on both their houses. Edit: I'm reminded of the West Wing episodes on this, where a despairing Bartlett asks "What is the virtue of a proportional response?" Edited January 12 by Loki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 minutes ago, Loki said: I absolutely believe that the rape, mutilation and murder of hundreds of Israeli citizens in their own country justified a response, yes Agreed. When that response is the wilful murder of babies and other civilians though, that justifies a response. It seems that there is a number people have for how many collateral deaths of innocents still counts as a justifiable response before it crosses over into war crimes. For me, that number is zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 2 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Agreed. When that response is the wilful murder of babies and other civilians though, that justifies a response. It seems that there is a number people have for how many collateral deaths of innocents still counts as a justifiable response before it crosses over into war crimes. For me, that number is zero. I respect that, but realistically that means no nation would ever take any military action as civilian deaths are inevitable in any scenario, let alone when trying to hit targets built into the infrastructure of a city. So my number isn't zero, but I'm very glad I don't have to decide what the number actually IS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JLM Posted January 12 Paid Members Share Posted January 12 (edited) I have lost all tolerance for the enlightened centrist “both sides are as bad as each other” takes on this honestly. I don’t condone the murder of civilians on October 7th, but I am sick of the framing of the ongoing genocide as a “response” as if that’s the day this all started. As if Israel aren’t the illegal occupying force who have committed apartheid over decades. Routine bombings to “mow the lawn”, indefinite detentions, murders, displacing people from their homes. As if Hamas were elected in a vacuum and the people just decided they hated Israel for no reason and loved a bit of terrorism. The idea that cutting off water and electricity and bombing civilian structures and the “safe” evacuation zones is regrettable collateral damage. As if Israel’s president didn’t literally state out loud it’s a collective punishment of the people: “It’s an entire nation out there that is responsible. This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it’s absolutely not true. They could’ve risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime,” As if IDF soldiers aren’t on social media revelling in their war crimes, which goes largely unreported in the west. I’m sick of the BBC qualifying the daily death toll with “according to the Hamas-run health ministry” as if Israel are putting out anything other than propaganda themselves. As if their minister for national security isn’t this guy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Gvir Even if we discount his previous convictions, his on-record racist statements and, well, his entire pre and post political track record, a year ago he said: “ On 1 January 2023, Ben-Gvir said that the war with Hamas presented an "opportunity to concentrate on encouraging the migration of the residents of Gaza.” He is in his element right now. This is what he has always wanted to do and now he has his justificiation. Well, maybe not justification in the eyes of the 150 nations who backed the ceasefire, including South Africa who are calling this exactly what it is, but at least enough justification for the UK and US to keep pandering to Israel. The Hamas attack on the 7th was an atrocity, but Israel are using it as their 9/11, to justify atrocities on a scale that does not even compare to it and to whitewash their decades of war crimes. They are the occupying superpower, they are the oppressing force, they are keeping millions of people essentially exiled within their own country. Again I am aware this does not justify Hamas murdering and kidnapping civilians, but this is not a 50/50 conflict and I’m sick of seeing if being portrayed as one. Edited January 13 by JLM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 To put it succinctly, when one "side" is proudly doing TikTok dances on the graves of the children they just killed you know who's fucking wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 minute ago, Merzbow said: To put it succinctly, when one "side" is proudly doing TikTok dances on the graves of the children they just killed you know who's fucking wrong. I feel that the South African lawyers could’ve just shown the IDF social media for hours as evidence of their war crimes and genocidal intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted January 12 Paid Members Share Posted January 12 (edited) What's frustrating about this whole debacle is that both sides are clearly carrying out horrendous violence on civilians. The civilian casualties in Palestine are of an abominal number. I've been listening to the Israel defence, against the charges bought by South Africa, this afternoon/evening. It's long! It's a litany of protest. We aren't carrying out a Genocide. You must believe us. South Africa are mistaken. They seem to think we are blind and stupid. The escalating idiocy of action in the Middle East is worrying and isn't being examined honestly. There are too many agendas at play for real clarity. Israel have been popping off with at least 3 of the surrounding countries. Killing people in Palestine hasn't been the extent of Israeli action. What Hamas did, and if the Israel defence is accurate, are still doing. Is completely reprehensible. They aren't any better than Israel. What a horrible horrible mess. Edited January 12 by BigJag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 minutes ago, BigJag said: The civilian casualties in Palestine are of an abdominal number. Yeah, it really is hard to stomach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted January 12 Paid Members Share Posted January 12 14 minutes ago, BigJag said: The escalating idiocy of action in the Middle East is worrying and isn't being examined honestly. I assure you there are hundreds if not thousands of journalists, think tanks, charities, consultants, academics and institutions around the world examining this situation "honestly". You're not the sole voice of reason BigJag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted January 12 Paid Members Share Posted January 12 (edited) Ok. I'm happy to know that you laid my fears at rest. Thank you. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/13/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-01-11/ty-article-live/intl-court-of-justice-unlikely-to-order-gaza-cease-fire-israeli-officials-say/0000018c-f711-d432-a7ae-fff9faed0000 The US is completely complicit and committed to that complicity. Edited January 14 by BigJag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Namibia aren't holding back whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted January 14 Paid Members Share Posted January 14 History shows up and kicks a massive hole in the status quo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Only know a handful of these but fair play, hopefully this’ll get traction and people will listen, or get to listen, to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 (edited) Just out of interest (as this is the real elephant in the room when speaking about this), what do people expect Israel to do if they do immediately stop the onslaught and Hamas do something equal to October 7th? That's the difficult thing here, as a ceasefire as currently being discussed is naturally one sided as the Israeli's are the only ones firing really, but Hamas have said outright that once you stop we'll do this again. And again. And again. It's why politicians who want to appease the left in their own countries euphemistically use the phrase 'sustainable ceasefire', without specifying that what that means is Hamas would have to agree to stop attacking Israel. Which they won't, so its a dead conversation. There is no easy end. And even an Israeli ceasefire now would be a temporary one until they were attacked again and they'd go after Hamas again, who they'd assume were sheltering amongst civilian populations and so they'd attack indiscriminately. Anyone who thinks there is an easy answer to this, or it's as simple as the singular bad guys putting down their guns, is kidding themselves. Edited January 14 by d-d-d-dAz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 17 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said: Anyone who thinks there is an easy answer to this, or it's as simple as the singular bad guys putting down their guns, is kidding themselves. Don't think I've seen anyone anywhere say that there is an easy answer to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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