FLips's Sopranos watching thread

[wandshogun09]

1 hour ago, FelatioLips said:

This just in, new least favourite scene is AJ having sex.

[Factotum]

13 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

But that was all it was, wasn’t it? Not rewatched it ages but was it all forgotten about and pretty much not ever mentioned again? It didn’t forward any of the characters and because she didn’t involve Tony it didn’t create any story after the episode. As I say though, it’s been a while and I may not be remembering it properly. 

That's the point though. As an audience we WANT her to tell Tony. Chase does this as a lot, he's goading the audience into 'really do you want this?'

Then she doesn't do this, and you realise why. She's moral and a good person, she knows what Tony would do and could have done and she chooses not to go down that path. She is better than him and ultimately better than the audience who are desperate for her to tell him. Its not mentioned again as she simply will never tell Tony. It doesn't need to be mentioned again as it does not play out in their interactions. She has made her decision to not go down that road.

[Keith Houchen]

3 minutes ago, Factotum said:

That's the point though. As an audience we WANT her to tell Tony. Chase does this as a lot, he's goading the audience into 'really do you want this?'

Then she doesn't do this, and you realise why. She's moral and a good person, she knows what Tony would do and could have done and she chooses not to go down that path. She is better than him and ultimately better than the audience who are desperate for her to tell him. Its not mentioned again as she simply will never tell Tony. It doesn't need to be mentioned again as it does not play out in their interactions. She has made her decision to not go down that road.

I get all that but I think using rape to do so was a bit gratuitous. 

[FLips]

3 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I get all that but I think using rape to do so was a bit gratuitous. 

The entire show is gratuitous. It’s down to if you as the viewer find it more so than say crushing a dog to death, beating a man to death and sticking a pool cue in his arse, or chopping up a body and kicking a head down a storm drain. 

[Keith Houchen]

Just now, FelatioLips said:

The entire show is gratuitous. It’s down to if you as the viewer find it more so than say crushing a dog to death, beating a man to death and sticking a pool cue in his arse, or chopping up a body and kicking a head down a storm drain. 

That’s a list of murder and killing, and is in sync with the whole show. All I’m saying is that using rape like that felt cheap and gratuitous and quickly forgotten about, the examples of other violence led to, or were part of, ongoing stories. 

[gmoney]

I'd say rape scenes in media should be a lot more carefully considered that any of the other things mentioned there, due to the trauma victims carry with them. I'm not saying they should never be done, but I'm not sure it was warranted in this series. Others may disagree, as is their right.  

[Factotum]

If I'm going to go deep into this, I do think The Sopranos uses violence to challenge the audience as to what they are watching. I think gratuitous is the point (and in this case it is that brutal due to what you want Melfi to do) Without discussing the ending, I think one of the biggest things it achieves is to challenge the viewer as to what exactly you want to see

[Keith Houchen]

Just now, Factotum said:

If I'm going to go deep into this, I do think The Sopranos uses violence to challenge the audience as to what they are watching. I think gratuitous is the point (and in this case it is that brutal due to what you want Melfi to do) Without discussing the ending, I think one of the biggest things it achieves is to challenge the viewer as to what exactly you want to see

As discussed earlier, some of the more shocking moments of the whole show is when lovable characters remind you who they really are. Silvio beating up Tracee (?) and saying he owns her shaven twat was shocking because it reminded me that Sil is second in command of a sociopathic mafia family and not just a Pacino impersonator with impeccable hair. 

[Factotum]

Spoiler

To slightly expand on my end theory, I do think it is David Chase giving a fuck you to people who want to see Tony get killed or some sort of violent ending. He's not going to show you and why would you want to see it anyway? We see people reacting to Phil's death in absolute horror and getting sick. We see the little train men looking at Bobby slumped over (and they really do linger on those) It's a bit of a critique of all of it. The Sopranos definitely believes in the afterlife so it 'going black' as him being dead, never sat right with me. I think it is a full on David Chase move. Anyway that's my TED talk. It's why I love the ending. So much to read into

Just a few expanded thoughts with spoilers as it refers to the ending

Edited February 8, 2023 by Factotum

[Keith Houchen]

I thought 

Spoiler

The ending showed us life from Tony’s POV, he is in a constant state of paranoia, everyone is a potential assassin and that’s his life now, always looking over his shoulder and will never have peace. It’s almost like the thing that died and faded to black was the relative security he had for his life. 

 

[SuperBacon]

Yeah, that's my take away from it too Keith.

Spoiler

He can never guarantee his safety or the people he loves. A lot of people subscribe to the theory that they all die in the diner. I hope he never ever explains it to be honest.

This is the best thread we've ever had by the way.

[LaGoosh]

1 hour ago, Keith Houchen said:

I get all that but I think using rape to do so was a bit gratuitous. 

I disagree completely. It had to be the most horrific and disturbing thing for the story to have any impact at all. I can't think of anything else that would have given Melfi's end decision the weight it deserved. 

And it not leading to any longer storyline is completely irrelevant. Why does it have to? The longer term ramifications of the story were that Melfi finally cemented the relationship between her and Tony as a professional one only and held on to her own ethics and unlike everyone else in Tony's life made the moral choice. It doesn't have to be followed up on in any future episodes. One of the underlying story of the show as a whole is that all these characters at various points have the opportunity to change and make the right, good decision. All of them turn away from the chance to change and be good people, all of them except Melfi.

As for worst bits of the show, I always struggle with the Jackie Jnr stuff because the actor makes him so insanely unlikable. With the right actor he could have been a tragic character but this guy...you're basically desperate for someone to shoot him as soon as he turns up.

EDIT: Good chat on the finale above but maybe we can wait for Flip to finish so the thread isn't endless spoiler tags?

Edited February 8, 2023 by LaGoosh

[Keith Houchen]

1 minute ago, LaGoosh said:

And it not leading to any longer storyline is completely irrelevant. Why does it have to?

The rape of the second main character (by cast billing) being treated as a one and done / monster of the week type deal didn’t sit well with me. Had any of the main male characters had such a violent sexual assault, it would have been mentioned again. 
 

But I guess that’s kind of the point isn’t it? It’s a story from a male point of view, and not just any male. A male who is the epitome of toxic masculinity who is actually scared of women who aren’t scared of him. He’s surrounded by men who have no respect for women and women who in general have no respect for themselves and love the lifestyle. I’m not saying the show is misogynistic by the way, the characters are. Much like Mad Men isn’t a racist and sexist show, it’s a show with racist and sexist characters. 
 

Im not saying anyone is right or wrong, I’m just saying using rape in such a way didn’t and still doesn’t sit well with me. I was willing her to ask Tony for help though but was glad she didn’t for the reasons you gave!

[Onyx2]

I came on to debate the Melfi rape and LaGoosh has said most of what I want. I hadn't looked at it that way before; yes it's brutal but it is supposed to be? It has to be an antagonizing incident to turn the audience bloodthirsty. And then in classic David Chase to be denied that. Like his protege Matthew Weiner proved in Mad Men, he and Chase like to write about people unable to change.

As it happens, that episode was written by Robin Green who lifted a scene from her friend's experience (consensually) into the script and later won an Emmy for it. She wanted to highlight the range of violence in American society. We're used to shootings, to stabbings, to violent punch-ups, but rape gets pushed off the screen. It's worth pointing out the episode caused controversy at the time too. In the end, Melfi shows that she takes the moral and just way by not creating more violence.

If we're saying rape is off limits unless dealt with in a certain way, is that any different to things we're 'allowed' to joke about too? If it's dealt with correctly and contextually it's fair game. 

I'm totally up for warnings ahead of a programme ("this programme contains some scenes..." and "if you've been affected...") so there's fair trigger warning. But I think it should be part of modern fiction.

EDIT: didn't like the way I phrased some things.

Edited February 8, 2023 by Onyx2

[gmoney]

2 minutes ago, Onyx2 said:

But I think it should be part of modern fiction.

No one has said that it shouldn't.