The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[tiger_rick]

6 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

That is a fair point although there are plenty of people who absolutely hate WWE, who for some reason tuned into that, just so they can immediately moan about it online, and always were going to.

That to me is utterly mental. Find something better to do with your time*

WWE are many, many terrible things but are unarguably an outstanding business doing very numbers at the moment. What reason is there for them to sign CM Punk if not to get eyes on the product from people who don't otherwise watch or like them? They'll not mind that there is a side effect of giving the other mob a bit of a kicking but he's not needed for any other reason. They don't need him for any particular role, they don't need bodies, they don't even need another pretty broken down vet. This is a company that just heated up The Miz to the point where some people wanted him to beat Gunther, according to the podcast I listened to - a man whose career peaked 12 years ago. They could put anyone in this slot. You only sign Punk if you want to attract different people to watch and discuss your shows. That's worked, whatever they are saying about it.

[RedRooster]

14 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

The guy who botched the Buck Shot Lariat multiple times, and spent more time injured in his run than anything? He had three I would say great matches. Kingston, Dog Collar, and his last match at All In with Samoa Joe. CM Punk in the 20’s wasn’t the wrestler he was in the 00’s/10’s. And of course things change as you get older, but the time away did him no favours.

Let's assume that's true. You'd have to point to the bad matches for 'when the bell rings Punk sucks' to deliver. For example - how many 'great' matches has Ricky Starks had in AEW, despite wrestling far more often and being much younger. Or Christian Cage - how many 'great' matches has he had? You wouldn't call either of their runs a bust. In WWE, you could point to LA Knight (as someone already has) or The Miz. Maybe Bray Wyatt, or even Randy Orton. Where are the 'great' matches? Three truly great matches in such a short run is pretty good going by my estimation. He'll be just fine in WWE, assuming he behaves himself. 

[SuperBacon]

8 minutes ago, Lorne Malvo said:

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the disingenuous nature of it and the 'I'm here to make money' line were them slowly planting the seeds for an eventual heel run at some point (the CM stands for Corporate Machine!)

Would just love that, and he would play it superbly well. I love Punk but he's at his best as a heel as so many people genuinely hate him (maybe with good reason, he's a bit of an arse clearly)

Get him on the next Green Day album whilst we're at it.

[Hannibal Scorch]

2 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

Let's assume that's true. You'd have to point to the bad matches for 'when the bell rings Punk sucks' to deliver. For example - how many 'great' matches has Ricky Starks had in AEW, despite wrestling far more often and being much younger. Or Christian Cage - how many 'great' matches has he had? You wouldn't call either of their runs a bust. In WWE, you could point to LA Knight (as someone already has) or The Miz. Maybe Bray Wyatt, or even Randy Orton. Where are the 'great' matches? Three truly great matches in such a short run is pretty good going by my estimation. He'll be just fine in WWE, assuming he behaves himself. 

But Starks and Cage aren't at the top of the card. They were not AEW champ. They were not positioned to carry the company.  If you had have said Hanger or Omega or MJF I'd have said that was a fairer comparison.

Besides, every match Christian Cage has had is an automatic 4 star because Christian Cage is involved in it.

[BomberPat]

21 minutes ago, Nick James said:

I just wish it wasn't Seth, give the story to Drew instead.

That would actually be a much more interesting dynamic for me - Seth Rollins is the consummate company guy, whereas Drew McIntyre "did everything right" when he was released, he grafted on the indies and made himself more valuable to WWE, and came back and fought his way into a top spot. A person like that could have a far more genuine beef with a guy like CM Punk leaving ten years ago and waltzing right back into a cushy top spot on pay-per-view in his hometown. 

I doubt it will affect their bottom line, but there's a chance that WWE are skating on thin ice here. For the first time in almost twenty years, they're a babyface company, and the crowd largely follow whatever they're given - people aren't trying to hijack the shows, and the top babyfaces aren't rejected as being corporate choices or forced down fans' throats at the expense of internet darlings. By either positioning CM Punk as a babyface outsider rebel opposed to the WWE machine or as a corporate sell-out stooge, both options risk setting the clock back to a time when WWE itself was the biggest heel in the company, and I don't think that's a position they want to be in now.

If they manage to keep a Rollins/Punk feud about personal issues rather than "corporate" vs. "fan favourite", or if they told a story like that skeleton of an idea with Drew McIntyre where it's more about "doing things the right way" than it is about heeling the company, they might be able to skirt around those issues. But it's interesting times, for sure. And I'm curious if Triple H will be able to resist the urge to put himself on TV as part of all this.

Edited November 28, 2023 by BomberPat

[air_raid]

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

At the end of the day, it's the Intercontinental title.

Aha, as Vince McMahon said to Y2J when Jericho wanted his Mania to be about pursuing a (company numbers) 10th ICT win.... "Nobody fucking cares about the Intercontinental title." No, we'll never get back to Warrior level. But that doesn't mean they can't try, does it?

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

It's unlikely that the IC title is going to become a draw, just because Gunther held it. 

Well, that's a different question entirely. As discussed at length during the Punk "will he/won't he" of the last six months, there's a huge argument that no one asset is a "draw" any more, usually referring to talent but certainly in the case of a title or title matches. The limited number of house shows they currently try to sell tickets for rarely have a World title match on them, never mind secondary titles. It's the ensemble, the show that draws a gate, rating, buyrate, Peacock subscription etc. But I'd argue keeping your titles looking valuable makes for a better wrestling show, rather than having someone discard them because they can't be bothered holding them any more or they only want to have to get one belt through customs.

1 hour ago, The King of Old School said:

On the Gunther debate there is no way he should get pinned for the IC title and then win the World Title a couple of months later.

John Cena, one of the greatest WWE champions of the 21st century, got pinned for the US title a month before WrestleMania 21. Do you think it made a difference to him?

1 hour ago, FUM said:

Or you could just do a triple threat and have someone else eat the pin to Gunthers anger and dismay?

Wiener wiener, chicken dinner. Have some utter cretin pin the third guy, earn some bragging rights for "I ended Gunther's reign" and you've got another big pop lined up for when he gets minced by the next babyface in line.

...... hang on, the best arsehole for that role is The Miz, and he's already been feuding with Gunther! Problem solved.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

30 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

@RedRooster

@Lion_of_the_Midlandsnot sure what your point is here. I’m literally commenting on what I watched and his promo. And I thought a crowd sign was funny. Who pissed on your cornflakes this morning?

Urine free cornflakes here Scorchers. My point is that your initial post indicated you wouldn't be watching any more of Raw. If I didn't see that you said you watched the promo, my apologies. If you had only watched up to Cody then why are you posting about Punk 2 hours later, surely he is someone you are not thinking about. I hate Piers Morgan. This post is the first and last time I will mention him, though he would have cut a better promo than that. You can't get Punk out of your head. Please go and think about something else before he starts choosing furniture as you know it will be shit uncomfortable furniture. 

[Snitsky's back acne]

As has been pointed out, Punk's promo gives Seth a lot of ammunition.

He has already referenced Punk as a hypocrite and he can do the 'I'm not buying this BS' stuff.

I actually like that he didn't reference anything AEW. He doesn't need to, WWE doesn't need to and you KNOW that completely ignoring AEW will piss of TK even more than if he had said something.

I'm looking forward to see what happens.

[CavemanLynn]

Considering Punk blew out his feet stage-diving and flipping into the ring under his own control, the most interesting thing about a Seth match for me is seeing whether Punk explodes into dust taking Rollins' ridiculous superplex-falcon arrow combo.

[SuperBacon]

14 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

That would actually be a much more interesting dynamic for me - Seth Rollins is the consummate company guy, whereas Drew McIntyre "did everything right" when he was released, he grafted on the indies and made himself more valuable to WWE, and came back and fought his way into a top spot. A person like that could have a far more genuine beef with a guy like CM Punk leaving ten years ago and waltzing right back into a cushy top spot on pay-per-view in his hometown

Although it's not quite the same and I get the point you're making, didn't Seth Rollins also "graft on the indies" before making it to WWE? 

 

[BomberPat]

Just now, SuperBacon said:

Although it's not quite the same and I get the point you're making, didn't Seth Rollins also "graft on the indies" before making it to WWE? 

 

For sure, but he was a "work hard on the indies, then get signed" guy. It's been a big part of McIntyre's story that he was the "chosen one", that it didn't play out, and that he went back to square one and worked his way back, with the intent of proving to WWE that they were missing out on him. I think that story of one guy who was released and fought his way back to the top vs. the guy who walked out of the dream job, and then had it handed back to him, has a bit more depth to it. 

 

On IC Title chat, I did find it very funny at Survivor Series that they had The Miz claiming to have "brought credibility back to the Intercontinental Title" - a claim that wrestlers have been making for about twenty years, without anyone addressing why it had no credibility in the first place - as if he wasn't synonymous with years of it being a meaningless midcard trinket.

Aside from being a fantastic, credible wrestler, and having a record-setting reign, Gunther should be perfectly positioned to make the Intercontinental Title mean something because the WWE Champion barely ever shows up, the United States Title is now also on a part-timer. It's a shame they bullshitted together a second (technically third, I suppose) World Title for Seth Rollins, because that stopped the Intercontinental Title being the de facto top belt, especially as they're both on the same show. Especially with Rollins tied up in War Games, it would have been nice if they had presented Gunther's belt as a de facto singles main event, and the fact that they didn't shows me that they're pretty content with the Intercontinental Title being at the level it's at.

Getting a secondary title off a wrestler destined for the World Title picture is always tough - you want to put someone over, but you don't want a future World Champion (or contender) dropping their belt to somebody who isn't themselves a World Title contender, at the risk of diminishing their credibility. Nor do you want them trailing a major loss into a World Title feud. I think the Triple Threat solution is maybe the best one, but there's no perfect way.

[SuperBacon]

2 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

For sure, but he was a "work hard on the indies, then get signed" guy. It's been a big part of McIntyre's story that he was the "chosen one", that it didn't play out, and that he went back to square one and worked his way back, with the intent of proving to WWE that they were missing out on him. I think that story of one guy who was released and fought his way back to the top vs. the guy who walked out of the dream job, and then had it handed back to him, has a bit more depth to it. 

Absolutely, but you and I both know that story ends with Drew accidentally breaking Punks nose with a headbutt and Punk walks out

[Supremo]

CM Punk is back to hopefully bring in new and/or lapsed fans. That promo will do exactly that. AJ Lee reference? All the weird, creepy, pseudo-nonces will be flooding back. Mission accomplished.

My main thought coming out of this show was that now that Punk has jumped to WWE, the biggest, most seismic jump still available to us is Randy Orton to AEW. I’d love that. Especially now he’s juiced to fuck.

[Hannibal Scorch]

@BomberPat is spot on. And they did play up on Drew’s journey on his return to him winning the big one. But he’s definitely been left behind it feels in a lot of ways even though his story is far more compelling then Seth’s.

Also Raw last night was the perfect time to show lapsed fans what they were missing with many tuning in to see the return of Punk (me included). And they got me with the first hour ad free that they might top load it with Punk. But there was nothing I saw in what I watched that I thought I’d been missing. And yes, because I’m usually up I’ll often switch on the wrestling while I’m pottering around so I’m not often watching but I’m listening. 
 

And that’s why I feel it was a missed opportunity. How many of those returning viewers, eager to see the return of Punk will tune in next week? They could have and should have treated that first hour like they did that NXT against Dynamite. Top load it, show people why they should return. I really felt it was fumbled.

[The Gaffer]

The discussion in here is mental this morning. I accept there's a sort of "No I was just let down" or "No I just really don't like him" response to this - and the whole heat magnet thing is hardly a stunning revelation - but the Raw thread only gets this busy once or twice a year at best. There's been some years it's not been close to this at all. In the modern era I can only really think of his 2011 run and the streak ending. 

It's lovely to see. I mean we're splitting the atom over things - that's the name of the game - but this is hot. The metrics and the context are wildly different, sure, but 2023 is a boom period, baby.