WHAT PLAY YOU!? Version 3.0

[RedTwoster]

3 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

Just finished Astrobot and now I’m a bit sad. It was such a fun joyful games (even if some the side missions were annoyingly difficult) and now it’s over.

Did you manage to collect every bot, even the super secret final one?

[Chest Rockwell]

4 hours ago, Onyx2 said:

A: sonic boom on wakeup along with Roundhouse sweep, or time a jump kick to connect at the same time, while recharging your next. 

B: stand stock still an arm's length from the body. Do his Fierce backfist as they rise. 

? crouch just in front of the prone body and fire out dozens of crouching Shorts. Stop just as they wakeup, blocking. They will have started to retaliate, punish. 

? sonic boom, knee hop Forward, throw. 

Cheers. I will try to work on this! I'm decent at remembering to charge most of the time but when I know I'm in to my combo that's going to get a knockdown I tend to not remember to start charging early enough after the last hit of that connects, so something to work on there in terms of keeping the pressure on!

[Hannibal Scorch]

1 hour ago, RedTwoster said:

Did you manage to collect every bot, even the super secret final one?

That level took me longer than any other, or at least most repeat attempts. Not that I knew it but

Spoiler

I was wearing the Parappa outfit when I did it, so that was an amazing surprise 

 

Edited October 8, 2024 by Hannibal Scorch

[Jazzy G]

14 hours ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Been playing Peggle 2 with the kids, @Devon Malcolm , and thought of you! 

Anyone know if there's a decent modern bust a move / puzzle bobble clone that isn't crammed with micro transactions and ads? PS / mobile / ipad / pc platforms all welcome. 

I'm pretty sure you can pick up at least one of the Puzzle Bobble/Bust-a-move games as part of Hamstersoft's Arcade Archives series. Or there's Puzzle Bobble 3D Vacation Odyssey which also does VR. 

[JLM]

@Chest Rockwell

The pressure/guessing game after knockdown is known as okizeme or "oki". Useful shorthand to know if you're looking for guides and tutorials. 

Pressure broadly revolves around the throw/strike/block  rock/paper/scissors guessing game. At point blank range you either want an attack to be hitting them as they're getting up, which forces them to block or parry OR you want to throw them, which beats block and parry. You then use a combination of these two things to try and condition them. You also want to do nothing/bait them at times as well in combination with the above, as they have the option to do an invincible OD move or super if they don't want to guess on defense, and you need to block to beat that.  

So like if you throw them three times, then they might start pressing throw when they get up to try and tech your throw, so the fourth time you hit them instead, which will punish them if they do that.

Conversely, if you make them block something multiple times and condition them that they have to block when they're getting up, this gives you the opportunity to throw.

Pay attention to what the opponent does in these scenarios and adjust accordingly. If it's a player you don't know at all or if they seem quite hyper and are jumping and flailing a lot, maybe start with nothing to see if they immediately throw out an invincible move on wake up.  

You can also shimmy, where you get real close to them when they're getting up to make them scared of throw, then back dash or walk outside of throw range. If they expected you to throw they will wake up and press throw, this will whiff because you're out of range, you then hit them for their missed throw. 

How you can follow up depends on how you knocked them down (which attack/throw etc you used to score the knockdown), how far away they are, whether they did regular quick-rise or back-rise, and whether either of you is in the corner. If you can't get point blank range to run the hit/throw/bait mix up, there is usually an option to set up a sonic boom, a sonic blade or tag them with a rangey normal attack like crouching medium kick. You an also use drive rush to close the distance and go for a throw or hit, or you can mix up with towards + medium punch overhead (they have to stand up to block this) or crouching medium kick (they have to crouch to block this). Again mixing up between the two to keep people guessing. 

As @Onyx2 says, a Sonic Boom timed so they have to deal with it when they get up is Guile pressure 101. It can be timed so it would hit them as they stand up, forcing them to block or parry, or timed so it's about to arrive when they get up, which tempts them into jumping over it, which can often be a trap. This guide is really good, it has different follow ups depending on knockdown and how the opponent got up, and shows you which options you have/how to set up traps etc.

In the corner specifically, Guile can throw loop off his regular throw by using a drive rush to get back to point blank range. So throw - > drive rush - > throw again. The dummy in the clip below is set to press his fastest attack as soon as he gets up, but this will lose to the throw if timed correctly, as he's already being thrown again before the jab can come out. To get out of this he has to jump, back dash, do an invincible move, or successfully tech the throw.

Once you've established the throw loop, you do the drive rush into a jab , which will hit them if they press throw/press attack/try to jump. You use jab because it's fast so, again, it's already hitting them before their attack has a chance to come out. Also the jab chains into itself,  so you can do drive rush - > crouching jab jab jab. You then (more fighting game lingo) "hit confirm" the jabs. So if the jabs are hitting, you can do jab jab jab flashkick. If they're not hitting, you can stop after a couple of jabs and block/try a throw/wait to see what they do. The other benefit of doing this little string of jabs is that if they wake up with drive impact, you're only doing fast non-committal light attacks and you can still press Drive Impact to counter them, whereas if you're pressed a bigger/heavier button you'd be screwed. So the little string of jabs basically allows you to pressure/fish for a response relatively safely and capitalise based on that. 

You can also stop doing it after a rep or two and block instead, so do throw - > little walk forward - > block, to see if they wake up with an invincible move which you can block and punish. 

Throw loop demo is here:

 

Other stuff in the corner:

The above throw loop is good, but it won't suit every opponent. Generally in the corner you want to box the opponent, applying pressure but not over-committing so much that they can do the two main things most people do when their backs are two the wall, which are A) Try to jump out or B) Mash Drive impact or a reversal in sheer panic.

As Guile if they're not knocked down, you want to stand at a range where if they try to jump out, your crouching heavy punch or flash kick will anti-air the and send them back into the corner. If you're TOO close constantly, you run the risk of them jumping out over your head. 

You can harass with medium and your light attacks, if they sit passive you can close distance with a dash or walk, and then you're close enough to threaten the throw/hit mix up, but if they're fidgety it's better to hang back and see how they try to get out, looking to react to a jump or a panic drive impact. If you have the opponent cornered YOU ARE WINNING, the mistake people make is they smell blood in the water as soon as they get the corner and try to kill the opponent in 5 seconds. Keeping them there is more important than landing hits and damage. They are in a bad spot, they will crack/panic, the damage will come when you anti-air/counter their drive impact/block and punish their OD dragon punch etc. Over-extending is a great way to let them out. 

One nice bonus specific to Guile is his upside down kick (towards + heavy kick)  This slightly breaks the rock/paper/scissors dynamic because it's an attacking move but it also beats throws. So if you're point blank, you can threaten throw and then do this move to beat them waking up with throw. 

 

Frame Data/Frame Advantage for the sickos: 

Lastly, the other important thing with pressure is to understand frame data, and more specifically frame advantage. This is too far down the rabbit hole for some people but it's reeeally not as complicated as people fear. 

 

The game runs at 60 frames per second. Every move's speed is measured in frames based on this. 

When your character is standing neutrally doing absolutely nothing, you're at "0". Every action in the game works around that base level. If you are below "0" (negative/minus) you can't perform any other actions until you return to 0. If you are above 0 (positive/plus) you are in an advantageous position and will return to "0" before the opponent, so can act before they do. 

So Frame data: 

Every move has:

Start-up (How long it takes for the move to become "Active" i.e. able to hit the opponent)

For example, Guile's standing jab has 5 frames of start-up, so it can hit an opponent 5/60ths of a second after you press the button. By contrast, his standing heavy kick, the big old stepping boot with the massive wind up, is 13 frames. There are 12 frames of animation/wind up before the move can actually connect with the opponent. If two Guiles at 0 stand next to each other and press these buttons at exactly the same time, the jab will win every time because it gets to its "hitting" state significantly faster than the heavy. 

Active (How many frames the hitting part of the move is in play/on screen for).

So again going with the jab, it's active for 7 frames. So it takes 5/60ths of a second to get to its hitting state, and it then remains in that state for 7, after that it's not hitting any more. It might still be winding down/going into recovery/the animation might be finishing but the "hitbox" the game uses to register hits has gone.

The heavy kick on the other hand, has 15 active frames, so it takes much longer to come out, but once it's out it hangs around for much longer than the jab. This is why people can walk into/dash into this move long after it's been thrown, as the tip of his boot remains in a "hitting" state for a quarter of a second, which in fighting game terms is quite along time.  

Recovery (How many frames it takes for your character to get back to "0" after executing it). 

Again, the jab has 7 frames of recovery. So after executing the move, you're back in your 0 state after only 7/60ths of a second. The heavy kick has 21 frames, so it takes 1/3 of a second for you to get back to 0. A good way to visually illustrate this is to do a move, then hold "Up" on the controller immediately, and see how soon after executing the move your character jumps. The longer the delay, the longer the recovery on the move. 

Frame advantage/Hit Stun/Block Stun

Every attack also has Hit Stun and Block Stun values. These vary based on the attacks, and are only applied if the attack MAKES CONTACT with the opponent. These  determine how many frames the character receiving the move has to spend in the "Blocking" or "being hit" states when they block or are hit by the move. Again, whilst blocking or being hit, you are not at "0" so cannot perform any other actions until you get back to 0. 

So to go with the heavy kick again:

If the move misses completely, it has 21 frames of  recovery. So if you whiff with this move and the opponent is stood out of range doing nothing, they can hit you at any point during those 21 frames and you won't be able to do anything about it. The opponent is at 0, you are at -21, they can still act, you can't. This is known as a "whiff punish". In this clip from SF4, I walk towards this guy and block to see how he responds to me trying to close distance. He goes for crouching medium kick into fireball. So I then feint to walk forward a second time, but stop and step back just outside of the range of his crouching medium kick. He then whiffs it, and I punish with my own because his medium kick is in the recovery frames and he therefore cannot block: 

SF6 lets you know if you've hit an opponent when they're too negative to block/in recovery because it gives you the PUNISH COUNTER indicator and the hit does more damage/gains other bonus properties. 

Whiffing: 

So if the heavy kick whiffs and the opponent was at 0, you are at -21. You have 21/60ths of a second before you can block/attack/do anything. As long as they do something that has faster start up than 21 frames and is in range, they can hit you with pretty much anything they want and you have to eat it. 

Frame advantage on hit: 

However, if your heavy kick with Guile HITS the opponent, it still has the long recovery BUT it also applies a shitload of HIT STUN to the opponent, trapping them in the "being hit" state and inflicting lots of negative frames on the opponent and putting you ahead of them in the race back to "0". The "HIT STUN" number itself is not displayed in the game, but what the training mode frame data DOES show you is the calculated outcome, i.e. who gets back to 0 first and by how much. In this case, Guile's standing heavy kick leaves the attacker at +3 if it hits, which means the opponent is at -3. So you will get back to 0 before they do. Your next action can happen 3 frames earlier than theirs, which, in addition to the damage, is your reward for hitting them with the kick. So if you hit another Guile with this kick and then you both pressed crouching jab as fast as possible, yours would happen first and beat theirs. 

HIt stun/frame advantage on hit is also what allows combos to work. For example, Guile's standing medium punch is +6 when it hits. So the opponent is stuck in hit stun and remain hittable for 6 frames. Guile's crouching medium punch has 6 frames of start up. So if you hit standing medium punch, you can follow up with crouching medium punch and this will combo. However, you can't do standing medium punch into a second standing medium punch because standing MP has 7 frames of start up, so the opponent will come out of hit stun and be able to block before the second one connects. 

Frame advantage/disadvantage on block: 

If the heavy kick is BLOCKED, it has the long recovery and applies BLOCK STUN to the opponent. The move still has the long recovery, but because it has made contact, the opponent still has to stay in block for a while before they can act. You don't get the same reward as if you HIT them, but the recovery is not as bad as if it whiffed entirely. So in this case, Guile's standing heavy kick leaves Guile at -4 if blocked. The opponent has 4 frames in which they can act before you can do anything. If they are in range and have a move with 4frames or less start up (many characters' light attacks can do this) they can PUNISH you after they block this move. If they're not close enough to hit you with a 4frame start up move, they can still act 4 frames faster than you, so if you both press attacks with the same start up speed, theirs will win.

Sooo how all of this relates to pressure, is to understand when you are at advantage (known as plus/positive/"your turn") and when you're not (minus/negative/"Their turn"). 

So to apply sustained pressure to your opponent, creating situations where you are at advantage and can attack again before they do allows you to pile on multiple reps of pressure without being interrupted. This will also force them to guess/make tough decisions/take risks etc. which you can then respond to. 

In SF6, the most important thing to note is that doing DRIVE RUSH into any of your NORMAL attacks gives them extra hit stun and extra block stun. 

So for Guile, his standing medium punch:

If you do this move normally it's "0" when blocked So both yourself and the opponent are at 0 and can both act at the same time. If you both pressed an attack with a 5 frame start up, you would trade hits. If you pressed an attack with a 7 frame start up and they pressed one with 6, theirs would outspeed yours and win. You do not really have a pressure situation here if the opponent blocks it. You can't be punished because you're not negative enough for them to attack before you can act, but it's not "your turn" either as if you both press at the same time neither of you will win. 

However, if you do drive rush into standing medium punch, it becomes +3 on block. So if you both pressed an attack with a 5 frame start up, yours would come out 3 frames faster than theirs and you would win. If you pressed an attack with a 7 frame start up and theirs was 5, you would STILL win because of your +3 advantage. This is a situation where it is very much "your turn". If you throw, throws start up in 5 frames, so this would also be faster than any attack they can press.

So after they block drive rush into standing MP and you are at frame advantage +3:

If you do a normal attack and they press a normal attack, they get hit, unless you press something reeeeal slow or press your second button reeal late. 

If you press a normal attack and they press throw, they get hit. Their 5 frame throw is too slow to come out due to your +3 advantage and they get hit before their throw can start up. 

The above two situations are known as frame traps.

If you do a throw and they press a normal attack, they get thrown. Again, your 5 frame throw effectively becomes faster than their fastest attack due to your +3 advantage.

This is what is meant when plus frames/frame advantage are referred to as "your turn" because you have the initiative and it is not wise from them to try and challenge. 

To get out of this, they have to do stuff like:

Parry - Can beat your next hit, and if they get perfect parry timing they can hit you back. However, if they parry and you throw, they lose. 

Invincible super or OD move - These moves are typically invincible immediately (1 frame) and will beat both your follow up throw and your normal attack. However, they are EXTREMELY risky. If blocked, they are usually double figures negative/minus allowing you to punish them. They also cost drive gauge or super meter, so they can't go to this option every single time.

Correctly guess you're going for a throw follow up and tech it. This ends your pressure, but again if they were wrong and you pressed hit rather than throw, they'd get hit. So it's a big risk. You can also bait this by shimmying as mentioned above. 

Burnout

Lastly, if the opponent is burnt out, EVERYTHING you do on block (normal attacks and special moves) all get +4 added to their "On block" value. So without doing drive rush you can do horrible pressure sequences where everything is plus/your turn. 

So with Guile you can do regular standing medium punch (+4 when blocked because they're burnt out) then press it again. If they try to throw or press a button after blocking the first one, they get hit. If they don't bite/challenge and just block the second one, you're +4 again and they have to guess between throw or hit a second time, and so on. Burnout is very very bad. 

Lastly, here's an example of me harassing a poor Dhalsim player when the game first came out as a quick example of pressure/fighting game conditioning/mindgames. So every time I had pressure I'd do quick mix ups between fast attacks and throws (known as "tick throws") to get him scared of throw and in the habit of tech-ing. I didn't care that the throws weren't landing, was just trying to very rapidly instil the habit in him so I could cash it out later. So then at 10 seconds in I do drive rush standing medium punch, giving me big advantage when he blocks it. I follow up with jab, which would have hit him if he'd pressed a button or tried to throw immediately. I then feint to do another throw with the lil' step forward, then step back and punch him in the gob when he tries to throw. Then I do an absurdly damaging Season 1 Dee Jay combo which has since been patched out of the game, which is probably for the best.  

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by JLM

[DavidB6937]

I don't think I've ever been more confused by a post in my life but I'm going to assume it's a good one!

[JLM]

Basically you mash your face against the buttons until somebody wins. 
 

If it’s you, pure skill, wear your crown with pride.
 

If it’s them, it’s because their character is overpowered and the game is bullshit and they were spamming cheap moves and your controller disconnected and the connection was laggy and you’re only playing for fun and they’re a sweaty nerd and you don’t even really play this game and they probably don’t have a girlfriend and you should send them a voice note riddled with racial slurs. 
 

 

Edited October 9, 2024 by JLM

[RedTwoster]

8 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

That level took me longer than any other, or at least most repeat attempts. Not that I knew it but

  Reveal hidden contents

I was wearing the Parappa outfit when I did it, so that was an amazing surprise 

 

Well done! I gave up at several points on that one, but kept coming back to it. I got that one step further each time, so it felt possible - but only slightly possible! Roll on the free DLC!!

[Chest Rockwell]

A lot to digest there but thank you @JLM! You're going to make me be a total nerd and put the frame data view on in training aren't you? 

[RedTwoster]

It’s kind of fallen under the radar since the initial hype video from Nintendo, but I would highly recommend Emio: The Smiling Man on Switch. It’s a narrative-focused mystery game, and its story is fantastic. You’ll struggle to get a physical copy, but it’s available on the Nintendo e-shop and is worth wishlisting, at the very least. It’s brilliant.

[Chest Rockwell]

This feels like I'm almost insulting you with my ignorance after all the detail you put in to your post @JLM but just internalising that throwing anything at the opponent whilst they are down to keep them pinned down / force them to think about defending makes all the difference in pressuring them. It's already made a noticeable difference in helping me win some of the kinds of matchups I was losing marginally before, and really steamrolling some of the matches I was having before where I knew I was better than my opponent but the matches were closer than they needed to be. 

[JLM]

Yeah that’s a huge part of the reward for knocking an opponent down. When they’re getting up, they have far fewer options available to them than you and should be forced to defend or think about defending, rather than randomly flailing attacks etc.
 

It’s also a repeating flashpoint situation in the match. People always have habits/tendencies after getting knocked down whether they think about fighting game theory or not. You can also instil habits and tendencies in them with the right pressure.

When you’re both at neutral against a nutty opponent they can do anything at any time and it can all seem random.

After a knockdown if you apply pressure correctly there are a much smaller number of things available to them which can actually work, and you can start to play around these. Against lower ranked players it can be as simple as:  “this player doesn’t understand that they need to block if I time this attack correctly, so I get a free hit every single time”. Then as you rank up it gets more fun and the mind games come into it pay. 

[Devon Malcolm]

I did not enjoy having to escape from the hospital on Hotline Miami although that level reminded me of Touch Fuzzy, Get Dizzy on Yoshi's Island. Bastard level.

[LaGoosh]

Yeah that's probably the hardest one I think.

[Dr. Alan Grant]

After enjoying the beta, I’ve started playing New World: Aeternum, an MMORPG from Amazon. Still early days, but I can see me sinking a lot of hours into this. It looks like a decade old game (at least), but there’s something addictive about it. 

It reminds me of Skyrim in that doing any activity levels up that ability. Chop down a tree? Your woodcutting skill increases. Use your blunderbuss? The skill goes up. Craft a skinning knife? Crafting ability rises. Rinse and repeat. And I like seeing a bunch of random players all running around in the early stages, all discovering the game for the first time. 

Edited October 15, 2024 by Dr. Alan Grant