Foley is Crud

[SaitoRyo]

I re-watched the For All Mankind doc on the Network at the weekend and it gave me a renewed appreciation of the man. I've always liked him and his work, but it really made clear just how fucking good he was in his prime. 

As with the podcast and his speaking engagements, he was also very candid throughout, didn't make excuses for anything and was honest about stuff he did and didn't like and why. Thought the section on his ill-fated run as a colour commentator was interesting, as there are very few people who are quick to so openly criticise Vince on WWE-produced stuff. 

I feel like I need to start listening to his pod in full, too, since every time I listen to clips (which is fairly often) I find myself really enjoying it. 

I know he has his critics and his done some questionable stuff over the years that has soured people on him a little but I think, on balance, Foley is one of the good ones. 

[The Gaffer]

Foley's performances during his peak years were genuinely something special. There was actual nuance and subtlety to an act that was 50% comedy & sympathy, 50% violence, and he done it across multiple gimmicks. It made a sort of warped vulnerability endearing to everyone in the crowd, during an era a lot of that crowd were holding up PUPPIES 4:20 signs. And it was never overcooked. Compare that to the gradual perception shift we're seeing with The Bloodline and their long, drawn out 'movies' now. 

To that end - and considering the era he done it in - Foley's about as close to 'genius' as you could call any individual performer. Totally one of a kind. 

Greatest Hits & Misses was probably the best Silvervision DVD around too, back in the day. Mind Games, Hell in a Cell, Royal Rumble against Triple H. Such an incredible, diverse roll call with links in between from Foley as if he was just sitting down talking to you as a friend about them. 

He's out of fashion as a 'legend', isn't he? I guess it's symptomatic of the hardcore style he was synonymous with being viewed as more problematic now and anachronistic now. It still happens, I know, but usually reserved as a special attraction. You just don't see many of the current crop name checking him. He's not as pure as Hart, not as decorated as Flair and Hulk, not as much of a crossover star as Austin & Rock and not in the Kliq clubhouse that dictates you're always guaranteed a retrospective "Architect of the Attitude Era" look in. 

It's a shame because he was such an important asset to that era in many ways. You take him out, and suddenly you're just left with edgelords and devil worshippers. He improved the roster just by being on it. That goofy, relatable part of the WWE. Particularly in 1999 when the tone of WWE just went so depressing. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Gay as FOOK

[SaitoRyo]

24 minutes ago, Gay as FOOK said:

Totally one of a kind. 

He's out of fashion as a 'legend', isn't he? I guess it's symptomatic of the hardcore style he was synonymous with being viewed as more problematic now and anachronistic now. It still happens, I know, but usually reserved as a special attraction. You just don't see many of the current crop name checking him. He's not as pure as Hart, not as decorated as Flair and Hulk, not as much of a crossover star as Austin & Rock and not in the Kliq clubhouse that dictates you're always guaranteed a retrospective "Architect of the Attitude Era" look in. 

These are two things I thought about after watching the documentary.

In the closing comments section Regal calls him a 'total one-off' and then says something along the lines of 'that might not sound like much but, trust me, it is'. And he's right. There's nobody else in wrestling like Mick Foley. 

And yeah, I think Foley still gets his due but not to the extent of some other legends. Which is totally fine, of course, and perhaps people shouldn't be trying to necessarily imitate him (especially the insane bumps he regularly took). I notice Orton still giving him credit for helping to make him with their programme and Backlash 2004 match though, which is nice, and Austin is always ready and willing to sing his praises. 

[Lorne Malvo]

I rewatched a bunch of Foley stuff earlier in the year and it made me massively reassess my opinion of him. He was class. I think 15 years of us taking the piss out of him for being a tight-arse, along with his shite self-parody 2nd GM run and the weird Melina stuff made me forget just how terrific he was. Just a top-class wrestler who played his role perfectly.

[Jonny Vegas]

Foley was fantastic and hugely underrated. One of the most believable acts in decades despite having gimmicks that if given to nearly anyone else could so easily have ended up as wrestlecrap.

One of the things that always sticks with me is how much impact I feel he had positively on others by them beating him, whilst also never really feeling like it took anything away from him. Particularly Rock, HHH, Orton and Edge.

I'd genuinely argue as well that the HIAC match with Undertaker was Taker's biggest moment of his career yet 25 years on all the talking points and focus (quite rightly) are still about Foley.

His programme with HHH for me was the turning point from HHH being handed the title because he was Vince's son in law, to him being on a new level as one of the genuine top stars in my opinion.

I have an awful memory for most things but I'll forever remember the segment of him coming out saying Mankind couldn't face HHH at The Royal Rumble in a street fight but he was naming a substitute and revealing Cactus Jack.

[davertfnewman]

I don't think Foley's work was ever in doubt, he was a fantastic, different worker from start to end of the nineties. It's actually pretty interesting to watch his face turn in '93 against Paul Orndorff and Harley Race, which gains him the ire of Vader. He went instantly and believably from the warped bounty hunter/underling (who still was floating around the main event in any case for a year and half) to a tough and courageous babyface for pretty much the rest of his career. Whoever realised it was time to make that change and took the chance on it, Dusty Rhodes or whoever, was a genius.

[The Gaffer]

10 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

I have an awful memory for most things but I'll forever remember the segment of him coming out saying Mankind couldn't face HHH at The Royal Rumble in a street fight but he was naming a substitute and revealing Cactus Jack.

Triple H losing his shit as Cactus being a different person might be my favourite ever example of wrestling logic that makes perfect sense but still would seem hilarious and insane to a certain outside perspective. 

[Merzbow]

Is his podcast back yet so he can make disgusting excuses for Vince McMahon  whenever any new sexual predator stories come out?

It was never about his work, more about the "nice guy" being a creep which continues to happen.

[BomberPat]

56 minutes ago, Gay as FOOK said:

Triple H losing his shit as Cactus being a different person might be my favourite ever example of wrestling logic that makes perfect sense but still would seem hilarious and insane to a certain outside perspective. 

It being Triple H is one of the most impressive things about it. Ten years later, he'd have make a snarky joke about it and killed it dead. 

46 minutes ago, Merzbow said:

It was never about his work, more about the "nice guy" being a creep which continues to happen.

It's wrestling. Mick Foley is presumably to "nice guy" what Kane and Val Venis were to "smartest guy in the locker room". Fine, but you're grading on a curve.

 

As a performer, Mick's greatest strength was vulnerability and likeability. A generation or more of subsequent deathmatch guys taking insane bumps and high risks for diminishing returns shows that it was never the big mad bumps, it's that it was Mick Foley taking them that made them matter - you cared about the person taking the punishment, it wasn't just torture porn. The only other people to have really drawn those dots that I can think of, to varying degrees, are Atsushi Onita and Spike Dudley.

[Chili]

I actually think Dark Side of the Ring has done Foley weirdly a bit of good. He got a lot of goodwill for how funny and pleasant he comes across. His little eulogy for Luna Vachon was absolutely heartbreaking and lovely.

[SuperBacon]

I've never really liked Foley, as a performer or as a person, but I can absolutely see why people would love him and I understand his appeal. Just never was for me.

Watching some 1996 WWE back, Mankind was great, and I especially loved the lullaby music he had after he won. Just a really nice touch for that character.

 

[Merzbow]

4 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

and I especially loved the lullaby music he had after he won. Just a really nice touch for that character.

I do wonder if that was in any way Twin Peaks inspired, it sounds far too much like a Badalamenti song. The way it's weirdly beautiful after something so horrible happened.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Merzbow

[Guest]

He’s talked about it a few times on the pod, but never linked it to twin peaks. More someone in a horror film listening to classical music after doing something horrific 

[SuperBacon]

10 minutes ago, Merzbow said:

I do wonder if that was in any way Twin Peaks inspired,

God almighty, Twin Peaks isn't gonna shag you mate, let it go

[TheBurningRed]

I thought he got the inspiration for it from Silence of the Lambs.