The Official UKFF RAW Thread...

[The King Of Swing]

Rosa bouncing around at ring side like her carrier depended on it was also a highlight.

[Cobra1000]

I really dont like what Dean Ambrose is wearing. That weird top he wears doesnt look good at all. Bring back the armour atleast man.

[Supremo]

While I'm not a fan of Ambrose's current weird black top, I still prefer it to when he wore the Bossman vest, but with a white T-shirt underneath. He looked Indy as fuck for the month or so that he wore that combination.

[PowerButchi]

Butch pegged Ziggler's downfall a good 18 months ago. He was on the ball with that one.

Same here, though I did say they should build a big face turn for him if they were to have any chance of success with him. They made a fuck up of the face turn though in my books.

 

In Sphinx's constant quest to be seen as a sage of the mat game, he's missed out that it's not "Same here" at all.

 

My theory was all around him going down like the Titanic due to them turning him face and him being shit at it due to be really unlikable, an average at best promo, and a ring style that isn't conducive to being a top line WWE babyface. I don't see how "He's fucked as he's going to have to be turned face and it's going to go tits up" is the same as "I did say they should build a big face turn for him if they were to have any chance of success with him.".

[Sphinx]

Butch pegged Ziggler's downfall a good 18 months ago. He was on the ball with that one.

Same here, though I did say they should build a big face turn for him if they were to have any chance of success with him. They made a fuck up of the face turn though in my books.

 

In Sphinx's constant quest to be seen as a sage of the mat game, he's missed out that it's not "Same here" at all.

 

My theory was all around him going down like the Titanic due to them turning him face and him being shit at it due to be really unlikable, an average at best promo, and a ring style that isn't conducive to being a top line WWE babyface. I don't see how "He's fucked as he's going to have to be turned face and it's going to

go tits up" is the same as "I did say they should build a big face turn for him if they were to have any chance of success with him.".

 

Sorry I don't keep a bloody dossier on you and your theories and opinions. I felt that, like you from what Ian said and of which I quoted, Ziggler was going to have a downfall. We both agreed on that much even though our reasons as to why were different.

 

But I am a sage of the grap game.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Sphinx

[PowerButchi]

Yeah, but his downfall was for the complete opposite reason than for what you said it'd be. Hence you're wrong. No sage are you.

[AndyUK]

Good RAW this week. The whole Bryan against the Corporates storyline isn't a new idea but it's very effective. The heels are detestable and you want to see the face get revenge, exactly as wrestling should be. Will be interesting to see where HHH threatening to fire the faces if they interfere goes.

 

The Punk/Axel match and the beatdown afterwards was terrific too. Heyman's acting made it, he really is one of the best in the business.

[Sphinx]

I dunno, I think they went about the face turn wrong. It needed a big exclamation mark on the face turn, a big 'moment' for him to turn. I don't think that the double-turn achieved that. Saying that, I've always thought his role is in the midcard and that he wouldn't make the step up to main eventer.

 

I think people could say Punk is unlikeable and having a ring style that wasn't conducive to being a top-line babyface but he's made it. But, having said that, Punk has more presence, has an edge that was missing from a lot of the roster and is a great promo. Ziggler doesn't have those things, but I thought his best chance of success would be playing the plucky, underdog because he could bump about, do his admittedly often OTT selling and then make the fiery comeback.

 

I'm half defending him and half saying he can't make it here.

[Duke]

Punk is a much, much better promo than Ziggler, and his ring style is absolutely fine as a baby face. Not a great comparison

 

 

Edit: it's worth saying that Ziggler had a great babyface match against del rio, and I'm not certain the matches were ever going to be the problem. It was always his facials, promos and general personality.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Duke

[PowerButchi]

How can people say CM Punk doesn't have a ring style conducive to being a top line babyface? He's fantastic offensively, and he's always trying to fight, even when selling during the control segments. WWE likes their babyfaces to be offensive dynamos. It's a babyface company. Heels bump big, bump quick, and get back on their feet fast as fuck to take more strong offense. It's always been like that there. And Ziggler is awful offensively. CM Punk is great on the attack.

 

Sphinx, I really don't think you understand the WWE house style.

Edited August 28, 2013 by PowerButchi

[King Pitcos]

Not seen his stuff in the last year then?

No, I learned my lesson with the "he's good now, I promise, I can tell he's good because the audience are Japanese" lies when Albert came back shit as ever.

 

This aint gonna fly with everyone.... but Cesaro would have been a decent shout for the next Heyman guy.

 

Cesaro vs Punk would have been OK for right now. I'd prefer that a bit more to Punk/Axel that we're getting and anyone else could have been a "Real American".

 

Plus he's got that indyrific streak that marks him out as a candidate for former ECDub boss, and he aint suffering from these slurs against Axel and Smith.

Cesaro hasn't been much better than them. Just a better uppercut and less nepotism. That's a bit unfair, actually. DH and McGillicutty are the dirt worst. Cesaro's certainly been in the same category as them persona-wise though. Heyman (and wins over Cena, HHH and a feud with Punk) might have done more for him than Zeb has, but neither manager has been able to get their turds over so far. And to be fair to Zeb, he's got twice as many useless fuckers on his books as Smelly Paul has, and less prominence on the show. On balance, I think Cesaro would be better than Axel as the Heyman guy, but neither are ideal. Looking at the roster, a best-case scenario would have been turning The Miz back heel with it. He's got the credibility, he can get himself incredibly over as a baddie, there's a good bit of bitterness between him and Punk, and the combined smugness of Miz and Heyman would put Triple H and Orton to shame. If they were always plucking someone from total sub-Superstars obscurity, which would have ruled out Cesaro and Miz, Curt Hawkins would've been the best bet. Even a Zack Ryder heel turn would've had more edge and no less credibility than McGillicutty.

[Sphinx]

How can people say CM Punk doesn't have a ring style conducive to being a top line babyface? He's fantastic offensively, and he's always trying to fight, even when selling during the control segments. WWE likes their babyfaces to be offensive dynamos. It's a babyface company. Heels bump big, bump quick, and get back on their feet fast as fuck to take more strong offense. It's always been like that there. And Ziggler is awful offensively. CM Punk is great on the attack.

 

Sphinx, I really don't think you understand the WWE house style.

 

My point was more that before Punk became a top-line babyface there will have been the same criticism of him. I agree he's always trying to fight, sells well, and can be explosive. But compared to some of the babyfaces that came before him, he was a different style. People said he wouldn't make it at the time. It's easy to say now that he's clearly a great face, but as recently as 2011 people were slating him.

 

The essence of being a face is that you need to elicit sympathy and sell well enough to do so. Taking big bumps on a heel's cut off can help gain that reaction. The most notable thing about Ziggler for me, other than his athleticism, is him taking big bumps. That fits in with the plucky, underdog. With what Tensai did to Ziggler, if he's a plucky babyface, you think he's fucked when something like that happens and he's elevated when he comes back fighting. Heels do bump fast and big for the face's comeback, but that doesn't mean Ziggler is well-fitted to that. You'll also notice that heels are dominant and tend to provide most of the offence in the match - not well-fitting for someone who you say has awful offence. As a face, Ziggler can focus on selling and bumping around and then making a quick, athletic, fiery comeback. On paper that makes sense at least. Whether he can pull it off is another matter. I don't think he can be a main eventer, I just think logically he had more chance of being a better face than a heel - especially if he was more along the lines of a Jericho where he still had a bit of the ego and could still call AJ a bint or whatever and not be a squeaky clean face.

[PowerButchi]

People weren't slating his in ring talent in 2011, they were slating the fact he was so fucking unlikable. If you get the time, go through the threads on here. No-one was knocking his matches as a babyface, more knocking his demeanor and promos as a babyface and pissing themselves laughing when he became the catalyst for Mr 2.9.

 

Again, faces don't take the massive bumps in WWE, faces sell. Heels bump a lot, faces stay down in order to build the heat. It's the way they do things. I don't think you're seeing that. It's the basic way they've done things for ages. Heels are the bumping machines, that's the way WWE like things done, and have done since forever.

 

And again, how logically could he have been a better face than a feel? He has not one tangible which lends itself more to being on the good side than the bad one. Jericho worked because Jericho was inherently likable, charismatic, great on the stick and funny. Dolph Ziggler isn't inherently likable, charismatic, great on the stick and funny. Why can't you just say "Yeah, I was wrong"?

[King Pitcos]

I think Ziggler's no better as a heel than a face. He never got any boos. This is where people get the big bumps and oversells = top babyface thing from:

 

 

That image, and Shawn Michaels in general, are what make people think Ziggler's money as a babyface (nevermind that the fans on the night preferred Sid anyway). I think ultimately, he's a bit John Morrisony in that he's not money at all until he rethinks his game. Ziggler hasn't got the skills to be a great babyface, and he hasn't got the skills to be a great heel. He's too concerned with being cool and impressing The Wrestling Forum. Depending on how his comedy takes off, another two years and he might sack wrestling off because WWE doesn't think he's as good as he does.

Edited August 28, 2013 by King Pitcos

[d-d-d-dAz]

Wait, what? He's into comedy?

 

I thought that was his brother?

 

Anyway, that won't work out. Comedy has no place for chiselled, attractive people. It doesn't work very well. Unless you mean comedic acting, in which case he'll have to scrape the barrel for every sub-Stifler role going.

 

*edit* I haven't seen Raw this week. I'm in Spain as I write this. But, it looks like quite a fun show. Bryan continues to get the 'big deal' treatment. I'll probably watch it on fast forward when I'm back.

Edited August 28, 2013 by d-d-d-dAz