The new MMA general news, events and thoughts thread

[ColinBollocks]

Ha. Fair enough. Schaub is annoyingly agreeable, when it comes to anything Rogan says. That cannot be denied.

Cain is an interesting one, because if he's truly told the UFC he's taking more time off, it could either mean he's being sensible with his recovery, or/and his back/shoulder/arse/knee/tattoo is absolutely buggered. Some of the stories about Cain not feeling his legs because of his back injury was scary, particularly when you consider he was training his arse off in that condition.

[wandshogun09]

Cain for me is one of the biggest cases of lost potential in, not just MMA, but combat sports history. He had (maybe still has but the sand timer is running out) all the ingredients to be the best ever. But it's looking like we'll never really know. It's a real shame.

And for all that people argue his case for 'best heavyweight ever', I disagree. He's up there in the conversation for sure, I wouldn't try to take that away from him. Just based on those two beatdowns of a prime JDS alone, he's in the convo. But I don't think he's had either the longevity, consistency or fought enough different opponents to be the nailed on #1. Most of his best years were spent smashing the same 2 men (JDS and Bigfoot) to pieces and the majority of the last 5 years he's sat on the bench. I still think Fedor holds the crown, despite the losses later on. And I'd say Stipe has skyrocketed up there as well with the run he's put together over the last couple of years. He just needs to build on it now and he'll overtake Fedor. Werdum, Cro Cop and Big Nog have to be in the mix as well for the strength of their resumés.  

[jimufctna24]

Fedor's resume: Cro Cop (prime), Big Nog x2 (physical prime), Herring (prime), Arlovski (prime), Sylvia, Hunt, Coleman x2, Schilt. 

Cain's resume: JDS x2, Brock, Big Foot x2, Big Nog (ancient version), Rothwell, Browne, Kongo

I think Fedor's resume is more impressive. Cro Cop and Big Nog in their primes were as tough an opponent as JDS was in his prime, and certainly tougher than Brock. Arlovski in 2009 is an underrated win for Fedor; I don't think Arlovski was ever better than he was in 2008/2009 under Freddie Roach. Sylvia, Hunt and Herring are just as impressive scalps as Rothwell, Kongo and Browne.

Cain's peak lasted 4 years (2009-2013). Fedor's lasted about that as well (2003-2007). Head to head, I would slightly favour a prime Cain to beat a prime version of Fedor. I think Cain matches up well against Fedor. However, based on resume, I still think Fedor is the GOAT at Heavyweight. 

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, exactly my thoughts Jim. I'd probably pick prime Cain to beat prime Fedor as well but going on what actually happened and who did what, Fedor is still the daddy IMO. People like to go back and pick holes in Fedor's record because he fought some shite like Zulu and Ogawa as if that's all he did. He beat the two best versions of Cro Cop and Big Nog. And beat them convincingly, even beating them at their own game at times. Had a decade unbeaten which is pretty unheard of for a heavy. And like you say, the Arlovski win, in context of the time, was a really good one. Add to that wins over Hunt, Herring, Coleman, Schilt, Sylvia, the crazy comebacks against Randleman and Fujita. Fedor fucking smashed it in his prime. 

[ColinBollocks]

I do regret not having been around to experience prime Fedor. It's like when someone says Pele is the best ever; maybe is, but I'm going on the word of others and tape from an older period in the sports evolution. My initial memories of Fedor looking like the most overrated (and shot) fighter ever will forever hinder his appeal, sadly.

[wandshogun09]

That's understandable. Cro Cop was another you really had to have followed at the time to fully appreciate his prime run. He had an aura about him like no other heavyweight I can remember in MMA. Like a real life Ivan Drago or something. 

I've got a mate who only got into MMA over the last year or two, basically the McGregor/Rousey era. And like you Colin, he sees someone like Shogun now and doesn't see anything more than the plodding midcarder he's become. I was telling him what a beast Shogun was before the injuries and lent him the 2005 Pride GP. He watched it and gave it a half arsed 'yeah, he was alright' and that was it. He didn't really know who Rampage was, and certainly not Ricardo Arona, so didn't really get why those performances were considered so blow away impressive at the time. He was only familiar with one Shogun victim in that Grand Prix and how much skinnier Overeem was back in 2005 was the topic he was most interested in. 

[jimufctna24]

15 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

People like to go back and pick holes in Fedor's record because he fought 

Aye. Chael Sonnen and Dana White syndrome. 

Fedor did fight cans on occasions in Pride; Zulu, Nagata, etc. However, most of his wins from 2002-2006 were very impressive. After thinking about it, I might be tempted to classify his prime as starting in 2002, and lasting until 2005/2006. 

For anyone who fancies tracking down Fedor in his pomp, I would recommend the following:

- Vs Randleman (Critical Countdown 2004)

- Vs Big Nog (Shockwave 2004)

- Vs Cro Cop (Final Conflict 2005)

 

[wandshogun09]

I think the first fight with Nog in 2003 might be even more impressive than the rematch. Fedor destroying Nog from the guard (and being in Nog's guard was considered a death sentence at the time) was mental. The way he was just ripping out of armbar attempts and stuff and crushing Nog with ground and pound was a sight to behold. 

The Randleman comeback is just insanity as well. All these years later I still don't get how that German suplex from Randleman didn't kill Fedor, or at least break his neck. He got spiked right on his fucking head. And 20 seconds later he's got Randleman tapping.

It's moments like that which really add to a fighter's legacy and how they're remembered years later. 

[jimufctna24]

You can't go wrong with either of the Nog victories. Both are gems. 

The reason I selected the 2nd victory was because of the form that Nog was in. I think Nog was a better fighter in 2004. In 2003, he went to the wire with Ricco, and his sheer heart bailed him out against Cro Cop (although to be fair, Cro Cop would have always been a tough style match-up for him)

In contrast, Rutten was in awe of Nog throughout the 2004 GP; both in terms of ability and physique. On the way to the final, he subbed Herring, and took one of his most impressive scalps in Sergei. I believe that Nog squeezed every inch out of himself in 2004 in preparation for a rematch with Fedor; yet he still could not beat him when they eventually fought properly at the end of the year show (there was of course the no-contest at the end of the GP).

 

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, I think if Nog was ever going to catch Fedor it'd have been that second fight in the 2004 GP final. He was really firing on all cylinders at the time. Best shape he's ever looked in, his BJJ looked tight as ever and I'm sure him and his brother were training with some Cuban boxers that year in the run up to the Olympics so his boxing was sharp as well. He seemed dialled in and focused as fuck. Proper Rocky training montage shit. I still don't think he'd have beaten Fedor but it was unfortunate that what seemed to be his best shot at it ended on a cut from an accidental headbutt. 

[the_mole]

He had just fought Kharitonov to a close fight while Fedor only had to beat Ogawa, so Fedor would have been the much fresher fighter that night.

While Coleman & Randleman had talent, they were pretty basic in their game plans, the sport has improved massively in that reguard,  fighters are following better game plans but Fedor was one of the first to be really well rounded, so it's hard to compare era's.

[Egg Shen]

Jeremy Stephens/Doo Ho Choi is set for January, thats gonna be bonkers.

[WeeAl]

Just now, Egg Shen said:

Jeremy Stephens/Doo Ho Choi is set for January, thats gonna be bonkers.

Bloody right it is, that has all the majings of a blinding fight. 

Derrick Lewis vs Marcin Tybura has been added to the Austin card, according to mmafighting.com.

[jimufctna24]

13 hours ago, the_mole said:

While Coleman & Randleman had talent, they were pretty basic in their game plans, the sport has improved massively in that reguard,  fighters are following better game plans but Fedor was one of the first to be really well rounded, so it's hard to compare era's.

It is indeed hard to compare eras.

What I will say is that Coleman and Randleman were products of their era. They were indeed very limited fighters, even for the standards of the time. However, given the lax rules on drug testing in Japan, they could juice themselves to the gills, which turned them into powerhouses. Watch how Randleman spiked Fedor on his head (which would be an automatic DQ today), or how Coleman lifted Shogun up from the triangle position in their brief encounter. They were monsters. 

It's true that most MMA fighters were on something pre-USADA. In 2010, industry insiders estimated that around 75-80% were on something or another. But even then, the fighters had to be careful what they took in case they got popped. Randleman got caught faking his urine test when he fought for Pride in Vegas in 2006. I believe he used the urine of an animal or a dead human (although amazingly, Coleman tested clean on that occasion). Also, when Coleman made the switch to the UFC in 2009 to face Shogun, their fight resembled an impotent man trying to have sex. One of the reasons for this was that Coleman had no money to train. I assume his lack of funds meant he couldn't invest in certain performances aids, and ones that wouldn't result in him testing positive. There was no such worries for them in Pride. It was a completely different landscape. 

 

[Dead Mike]

15 hours ago, wandshogun09 said:

 

The Randleman comeback is just insanity as well. All these years later I still don't get how that German suplex from Randleman didn't kill Fedor, or at least break his neck. He got spiked right on his fucking head. And 20 seconds later he's got Randleman tapping.

It's moments like that which really add to a fighter's legacy and how they're remembered years later. 

I used to get Pride DVD's sent to me in my tape trading days a week or so after the event happened. I remember watching this with my housemate at the time & when Randleman hit that suplex we both jumped out of our seats. Thought he'd killed him only for Fedor to calmly kimura him. After that we were convinced Fedor was a terminator, a Russian experiment built in a Moscow lab.