The new MMA general news, events and thoughts thread

[Cousin Jim Bob]

Conor has been saying fighters need to "lobby" for the right to fight him now. As he has transcended MMA and boxing.

https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2017/12/8/16750660/ufc-boxing-mma-news-interview-conor-mcgregor-fight

I think he is doing a Floyd style you can hate me now because I'm a dickhead but you will pay to watch me fight as I keep winning and you want me to lose. Problem is he has a murderers row of guys in MMA to fight like Tony, GSP, Woodley, Khabib, etc. Fighting Manny in boxing would probably see him getting a Hatton style beat down. 

[Egg Shen]

14 hours ago, lambyUK said:

 

It's almost like DC vs Jones in a way. You have 2 guys here who are just ridiculously good compared to what came before them (and that's not a knock on past heavyweights, more the evolution of the sport), and could propel heavyweight MMA to a new level.

 

disagree with that. I think Cain/JDS set the benchmark for heavyweight MMA in terms of ability and this one isn't above that for me. Velasquez would still be on top of the division if he'd have stayed healthy.

[ColinBollocks]

I hate Manny v Conor, but I bet the fucker will do some hype and I'll buy it. Honestly, I think maybe only a draw like GSP is getting Conor back to the real fight game, at this point.

[wandshogun09]

7 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

Velasquez would still be on top of the division if he'd have stayed healthy.

You can't know that though. He was a great fighter but like anyone else he wasn't unbeatable at any point. JDS KO'd him. Werdum beat him everywhere. People love to make excuses for Cain but he's a fighter with flaws like any other. The flaws were fewer and harder to find obviously but he wasn't punch proof or submission proof. Who's to say that even if he'd stayed healthy, that this version of Stipe wouldn't beat him? I wouldn't be confident making a prediction in that fight. Who's to say Ngannou wouldn't catch him? Fuck, I'd still give Werdum a good shot at going 2-0 over him. Cain beat JDS and Bigfoot on rotation for much of his prime run. He was mega impressive in those wins but I don't think they made him the automatic GOAT or anything. We didn't see enough of Cain against enough different guys. If Renan Barao fought Urijah Faber and Eddie Wineland on a loop for the last 3 years he'd probably still be the champ and thought of as the P4P king. It wasn't Cain's fault that the depth wasn't there at the time to fight lots of fresh challengers but it's partly his fault that he didn't stay around and healthy long enough to see those fresh challengers emerge because he trained like a div and fucked his body up. 

Cain's a big question mark for me. The 2 JDS wins will always put him up there in the best heavyweights convo for me. But besides that, I don't think he did enough to be considered the nailed on #1. It's not like he had a GSP like reign. GSP did so much while he was champ that even taking those 4 years off, nobody caught up to his achievements. It'd be the same if Mighty Mouse walked away now. But JDS fights aside, Cain's wins over Lesnar, Bigfoot, a fading Nog and a shot Browne...it doesn't seem enough somehow to convince me that he's #1 and there's no argument. If he'd stayed around and not lost to Werdum and dominated the likes of Miocic, Overeem, Hunt, Werdum, and Ngannou now, man, he'd be #1 no question. But based on what he actually did not what he had the potential to do, I'm not sure where he sits. The division moves on. 

[Egg Shen]

valid points, but i still disagree that Stipe/Ngannou is setting a new highpoint for the standard of heavyweight MMA. Its more along the lines of the top guys we've seen there for the last 5 or so years. There's still a huge gap between the top 5 and everyone else though.

[wandshogun09]

I think Stipe and Ngannou are more skilled (although we don't know how much range there is to Ngannou's skillset yet) and more athletic than the majority of the division. I'd still put Werdum along with them though but, like my criticism of Cain's silly training methods, Werdum's guilty of being a bit lazy at times. He's ridiculously skilled. So I agree I don't think Stipe/Ngannou have surpassed Cain and Werdum really as far as quality goes. And there's still a lot of questions to be answered where Ngannou is concerned anyway. They're the two who stand out at the moment but like you say, there's a big drop off in standards when you go below the Top 5 or 6 in the weight class. 

[lambyUK]

2 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

disagree with that. I think Cain/JDS set the benchmark for heavyweight MMA in terms of ability and this one isn't above that for me. Velasquez would still be on top of the division if he'd have stayed healthy.

You may be right in regards to Cain, but whatever he was doing wasn't working was it or he would have been able to stay healthy. Cain was an animal there's no doubt about that, but i believe at least technically Stipe and Ngannou are part of a new bread of heavyweight.

Both seem athletically on another level to what JDS and Cain were too.

Edit..and similar to some of the points Wand mentioned.

[mim731]

1 hour ago, lambyUK said:

a new bread of heavyweight.

[Egg Shen]

in what way is Stipe better than Cain though? 

I wouldnt say he's a better wrestler or boxer. I know MMA math dont work but Stipe had a 5 round war with JDS and lost, and that was after the 2 fights where Cain just annihilated Junior in every way imaginable. The Cain that did that to JDS beats Miocic of 2017 for me.

Ngannou has way too many question marks next to him to even put him in the same category...at the moment.

[ColinBollocks]

MMA math doesn't work at all. You can argue the Stipe that got bested by JDS is not the same polished champion we've got in 2017, seeing as he's quite clearly worked his arse off on his craft to get where he is today. Cain got clobbered by JDS in just over a minute, but that doesn't mean that was the best Cain too. Also, Werdum choked out Cain, yet Stipe ended Werdum a fight later in a round. MMA math is rubbish.

Also, Stipe is a much better boxer than Cain, IMO. Cain is great in close and in the clinch, but just banging, Stipe is fairly underrated as a boxer. Grappling I'd give to Cain.

It's well tight and subjective. What we can probably agree on is their prime years are their title reign years.

Cain's title record: Battered a lesser Brock Lesnar, lost to JDS (was injured) / THEN won it back against prime JDS, fought Big Foot Silva again won impressively again, fought JDS again and shortened his life.

Stipe's title record: Clobbered the then hyped GOAT Werdum in a round in Brazil, came back to batter a resurgent Overeem in a round, mauled a lesser JDS in a round.

[jimufctna24]

I think the evolution of MMA is inconsistent between divisions. Jon Jones was clearly an upgrade over Light Heavyweights of previous generations; both in terms of size, technique, and ability. Today's Middleweight division is also stronger than ever. Anderson's reign would likely have been much shorter had he opposed Rockhold (2015 version), Weidman, Kelvin and Romero rather than Okami, Sonnen and Belfort. 

However, other divisions haven't really progressed in such a way. The best example being the Heavyweight division. I think Heavyweight MMA in the mid-00's had a flock of Heavyweights that are comparable to today's talent, and perhaps even be a bit better overall. For sheer depth, Pride's Heavyweight division outstrips the UFC Heavyweight division of today. Pride had Fedor, Big Nog, Cro Cop. Barnett, Aleks, and Kharitonov all at their peaks, with Werdum and Hunt bubbling underneath. In terms of peak performers, I don't see any reason why Fedor circa 2003 couldn't mix it up with Miocic. Big Nog circa 2004 would have been a force today as well. The version that arrived in the UFC was nowhere near the version that operated in Pride. Compare his boxing in Pride to his boxing in the UFC; he clearly lost half a step. 

Cain and JDS were meant to represent the new generation of Heavyweight in the same way Jones, Rumble and Gusty represented a new breed at Light Heavyweight. But for reasons previously stated, it hasn't quite worked out at that way. Personally, I think that if Cain had perhaps trained a bit smart and kept his body right, he would have lifted Heavyweight to new heights, at least in terms of peak performance (Cain can't be held responsible for the quality of the division as a whole). As it stands, Heavyweight is ticking along, but it isn't a clear upgrade over what it was a decade ago. For now, Miocic is a quality Champion, and Ngannou is an exciting prospect. We'll see how both develop. 

[wandshogun09]

7 hours ago, ColinBollocks said:

MMA math doesn't work at all. You can argue the Stipe that got bested by JDS is not the same polished champion we've got in 2017, seeing as he's quite clearly worked his arse off on his craft to get where he is today. Cain got clobbered by JDS in just over a minute, but that doesn't mean that was the best Cain too. Also, Werdum choked out Cain, yet Stipe ended Werdum a fight later in a round. MMA math is rubbish.

Yeah, the Miocic who fought JDS the first time in 2014 hadn't really found his feet yet. He was still rebuilding off that loss to Struve and JDS was his first real step up to that championship level. And a lot of people had Stipe beating JDS that time. It was a close one. Since then he's gone from strength to strength with the wins over Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem and JDS. And he's stopped all of them, with only Hunt making it out of the first round. I genuinely think that's a better run than Cain's title reign. 

Like for like, I'd compare where Miocic was in the first JDS fight to where Cain was when he fought Cheick Kongo. And let's not forget Cain got dropped 3 times in that fight. They were step up fights that exposed some flaws in both mens' games but ultimately improved them in the long run. They were significant turning points and learning experiences for both. 

[Egg Shen]

1 hour ago, wandshogun09 said:

 Hunt, Arlovski, Werdum, Overeem and JDS. And he's stopped all of them, with only Hunt making it out of the first round. I genuinely think that's a better run than Cain's title reign. 

 

i wont dispute that. 

My only issue with the argument is saying that Miocic represents a type of heavyweight unlike what we've seen in the past, which isn't true...and saying that Miocic/Ngannou is the best heavyweight fight ever, which overlooks several fights way more deserving of that title. 

[lambyUK]

4 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

in what way is Stipe better than Cain though? 

I wouldnt say he's a better wrestler or boxer. I know MMA math dont work but Stipe had a 5 round war with JDS and lost, and that was after the 2 fights where Cain just annihilated Junior in every way imaginable. The Cain that did that to JDS beats Miocic of 2017 for me.

Ngannou has way too many question marks next to him to even put him in the same category...at the moment.

Stipe's boxing is far superior to Cain's and both are high level wrestlers.

It's Cain persistent pressure that made him great for me.

In relation to how both performed against JDS, that's really not a fair comparison really has to how far Stipe improved since that war.

I compare him to Holloway in a way in regards to how much he's developed since their last loss. Holloway isn't the same fighter that lost to Mcgregor and neither is Miocic.

And whilst there's big questions about Ngannou still, we've never seen a monster in the heavyweight division like him before. We've had knock out artists like Carwin, but never someone as scary and athletic as him before. No one has ever really made Overeem look like a small heavyweight before and frankly made him look out of his depth.

[Egg Shen]

is it really far superior? Cain's handily out-boxed pretty much everyone he fought. The only advantage i'd give Stipe over Cain on the feet is that he carries more straight up knockout power.

Ngannou's potential right now looks limitless, but there's too many unanswered questions there to declare him the second coming. Until he's been dragged into deep water and goes a few rounds i'll leave an asterix next to the name.