Da Wrestler`s Wrestler DKJ Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 i appreciate how much of a good wrestler benoit was, and i can try to enjoy his matches but at the same time i cant forget what he did that fateful weekend and i probably never will. the whole thing could have brought down the wrestling industry and where would we be then? Â What Beniot did could not have brought down the wrestling industry. There has been MANY scandals in music, sports, movies and Television but they are all still here. Wrestling did take a hell of a shot from it yes and we are still realing from it now to this day. IE this PG shit. After the Beniot thing there was no (harsh) language, Banned chairshots and unnecessary violence, Divas had to cover up and show no skin, and there was no men even touching women in the ring. Cena says "ass" once in a promo, Then Rock says it 4 times in less then 5mins, (unnecessary) violence has made its way back, Melina's ring gear is now see-through again and I even noticed that Trish Stratus's nipples were visible underneath her top on raw last week. I guess when inter-gender tag team matches are allowed again that is the final sign that pg is dead But jokes aside as the saying goes "No one man or woman is bigger then the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Is Fred West known for his stirling building work? Is Harold Shipman known for all the good work he did as a GP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 28, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 28, 2011 Melina's ring gear is now see-through again and I even noticed that Trish Stratus's nipples were visible underneath her top on raw last week. I guess when inter-gender tag team matches are allowed again that is the final sign that pg is dead But jokes aside as the saying goes "No one man or woman is bigger then the industry.  pics man pics  Is Fred West known for his stirling building work? Is Harold Shipman known for all the good work he did as a GP?  I happen to know Harold Shipman is a quack of the highest order. Cured my old nan's sleeping problems anyway, never get an answer these days when I knock her door, she's always fast asleep can't even be arsed to collect her post from the letterbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Wrestler`s Wrestler DKJ Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Is Fred West known for his stirling building work? Is Harold Shipman known for all the good work he did as a GP? Â Of course they are not, Their work was not celebrated before the crimes they committed, And I very much doubt they both did any work worth celebrating before their crimes. If for example that Fred West was as a great architecture like sir Christopher Wren that designed and built most of the buildings in london then maybe, Just maybe people would look at him different. Again it comes down to how over with the people you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
textonly Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 The thing is though, a lot of people are talking about ENJOYING Benoit's matches. You wouldn't (well...I assume you wouldn't...) talk about enjoying one of Hitler's speeches. Nobody's disputing that Benoit was an extremely talented wrestler. However, much like Hitler's speeches are overriden by that whole war thing, Benoit's wrestling matches are absolutely overshadowed by the fact he killed his wife and 7 year old kid. Â Benoit's wrestling talent and Hitler's oratory skills aren't comparable to me because Hitler's skills were the weapon by which millions of people were killed. You can marvel at how persuasive or charismatic he was, but ultimately you're looking at a guy who's espousing hateful bullshit. It's not the same at all. Benoit's wrestling abilities were fantastic and any bearing they had on what happened in the end are indirect. Enjoying a fictional work he is involved in is nothing like enjoying hearing Hitler whip up a Zeitgeist of hate and fear. Â Is Benoit's legacy overshadowed? Certainly. But is his talent? I don't think so. Â Honestly I still think back to a Smackdown! taping I went to in '06 and I'm delighted I got to see the man perform at least once. I mean, there's no part of me that takes pleasure in having seen the controversial figure he would later become, but I'm happy I got to see one of the all-time greats do what he was great at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostface1982 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 He was still amazing though, and those matches are the pro wrestling equivalent of this scene from Naked Gun. If you can get past the murdering bastard nature of it, you will like this scene as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNcBazCnmdg...feature=related OJ was innocent damn it. The glove didn't fit!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted March 29, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 29, 2011 I'm loving the argument that people should enjoy Benoit's matches in the same way people enjoy Hitler's speeches. Â As if Hitler's speeches are 'enjoyable'. They can be studied, listened to and even admired technically. But if someone actively enjoys listening to Hitler's speeches, you'd assume they're a mentalist. In the same way, if you try to suggest that Benoit's technical legacy is more important than him murdering a child, you're probably a mentalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 This might be a strange/slightly off analogy, but in Ethics Class once we discussed if evil can ever be justified and someone made an excellent point: When Hitler rose to power, he rebuilt Germanys infrastructure, he rebuilt the currency, he reduced unemployment to zero, however he did this by massacring Jews, Christians, homosexuals, the disabled etc. Yeah, he did some good things, (although this is in no way condoning The Holocaust or Nazi-ism) but he did it by acts of near-unspeakable evil. Chris Benoit may well have been a great wrestler, but he murdered a 7 year old child and a woman.  What about dropping the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdering thousands of innocent people in order to end a war with a big exclamation point and make people scared to fuck with the US for the rest of the century? Nowt to do with Chris Benoit, but people justify evil acts every day.   I'm loving the argument that people should enjoy Benoit's matches in the same way people enjoy Hitler's speeches. As if Hitler's speeches are 'enjoyable'. They can be studied, listened to and even admired technically. But if someone actively enjoys listening to Hitler's speeches, you'd assume they're a mentalist. In the same way, if you try to suggest that Benoit's technical legacy is more important than him murdering a child, you're probably a mentalist.  I think the Hitler comparisons on either side of the argument are ludicrous. I think it would be perfectly reasonable for, say, a history student or even an aspiring politician to watch Hitler's speeches in the way you suggested - but the idea of someone 'enjoying' them invokes (probably rightly) the image of a far-right, neo fascist nutter who buys into all the ideology within them. The difference with watching and enjoying a Benoit match is that doing so just means you enjoy professional wrestling, not child murder.  Like I said, I can separate the performer from his acts in his final days, but if you can't, then that's cool - I'm not arguing with St. Peter and the Devil for his immortal soul, and I don't really care about his legacy. Your personal attitude to his work is up to you, but don't try and force it on others (I'm not talking about you directly here, btw Chris). Whether some wrestling fan who didn't know any of them gets a bit of enjoyment of watching his matches doesn't make a damn bit of difference to what happened to those people either way. Watching them doesn't mean you're a bastard who condones his actions, and wringing your hands righteously while refusing to watch them doesn't make you some kind of saint either - it doesn't matter one bit in the scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted March 29, 2011 Moderators Share Posted March 29, 2011 The Hitler comparisons are pretty nonsensical. Â A more apt comparison/question would be to ask if his actions will ever be glamourised and history re-written in that context - e.g. how some bands will cover Charlie Manson songs, or how many outlaws have come to be romanticised over time. Â My guess is no, because there's no real way to make what he did sound heroic or cool, no matter how many facts you ignore. Â Benoit's actions won't ever be forgotten to the extent that anyone could talk about his matches without thinking about what he is really famous for. So in that sense, no, he will never be remembered (just) for his talent again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted March 29, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 29, 2011 Is Fred West known for his stirling building work? Is Harold Shipman known for all the good work he did as a GP? Â It's been interesting, since you have shown yourself to be one of the forum's biggest idiots in the various politics threads, how you have suddenly become massively stupid in every other thread you post in too. Like a massive floodgate of stupidity has been opened by your views in the politics thread. You are the UKFF tsunami. A stupid tsunami. Â Plus, I'm going to keep a tally of how many times we see 'Beniot' in this thread. Da Wrestler`s Wrestler DKJ is doing especially well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_3165 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I can and do watch his matches and although I remember the events of 2007 I don't dwell on them. I can seperate a character from the actual person in the sense of respecting his contributions to the business without getting caught up in the other stuff. Â I must say that having worked in a prison maybe that's why I am a bit hardened to the crimes commited... Dunno really. The only thing I don't like watchin are chair shots to his head... Knowing what damage they caused is not something I wanna think about. Â I regularly ask myself, perhaps morbidly, if his opponent knew what was to happen in the future would they have acted in the ring to prevent it... Strange I know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted March 29, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 29, 2011 This might be a strange/slightly off analogy, but in Ethics Class once we discussed if evil can ever be justified and someone made an excellent point: When Hitler rose to power, he rebuilt Germanys infrastructure, he rebuilt the currency, he reduced unemployment to zero, however he did this by massacring Jews, Christians, homosexuals, the disabled etc. Yeah, he did some good things, (although this is in no way condoning The Holocaust or Nazi-ism) but he did it by acts of near-unspeakable evil. Chris Benoit may well have been a great wrestler, but he murdered a 7 year old child and a woman.  What about dropping the atom bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and murdering thousands of innocent people in order to end a war with a big exclamation point and make people scared to fuck with the US for the rest of the century? Nowt to do with Chris Benoit, but people justify evil acts every day.   I'm loving the argument that people should enjoy Benoit's matches in the same way people enjoy Hitler's speeches. As if Hitler's speeches are 'enjoyable'. They can be studied, listened to and even admired technically. But if someone actively enjoys listening to Hitler's speeches, you'd assume they're a mentalist. In the same way, if you try to suggest that Benoit's technical legacy is more important than him murdering a child, you're probably a mentalist.  I think the Hitler comparisons on either side of the argument are ludicrous. I think it would be perfectly reasonable for, say, a history student or even an aspiring politician to watch Hitler's speeches in the way you suggested - but the idea of someone 'enjoying' them invokes (probably rightly) the image of a far-right, neo fascist nutter who buys into all the ideology within them. The difference with watching and enjoying a Benoit match is that doing so just means you enjoy professional wrestling, not child murder.  Like I said, I can separate the performer from his acts in his final days, but if you can't, then that's cool - I'm not arguing with St. Peter and the Devil for his immortal soul, and I don't really care about his legacy. Your personal attitude to his work is up to you, but don't try and force it on others (I'm not talking about you directly here, btw Chris). Whether some wrestling fan who didn't know any of them gets a bit of enjoyment of watching his matches doesn't make a damn bit of difference to what happened to those people either way. Watching them doesn't mean you're a bastard who condones his actions, and wringing your hands righteously while refusing to watch them doesn't make you some kind of saint either - it doesn't matter one bit in the scheme of things.  While I know you're not talking about me directly, but I think you've misunderstood me. I'm actually pointing out how ludicrous the link between Hitler and Benoit is, since the argument earlier seemed to be that Hitler can be remembered for his great oration without needing to think about the atrocities he committed. That's ridiculous.  The point I made about Benoit wasn't 'you can't enjoy his matches' - I specifically avoided that. What I was talking about was the attitude of 'the fact that he murdered a child isn't important compared to his wrestling ability'. I think that's a stupid thing to say. To be able to say 'I can watch without thinking about it', that's fine. But to attach importance to it like that, and to compare it to how unimportant the death of his son was, is just blatantly bollocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Looking back through that thread, Loki was hitting the "remember the wrestler, not the murderer" stuff pretty hard. Loki, have your views changed in the intervening years? Or do you still pop in that Hard Knocks DVD every few weeks?  Nope  I loved watching Benoit wrestle. He was my favourite performer, and I loved how he made me forget that it wasn't real, through all the little things he did. He was fucking great, and the WWE still don't have a performer who can do what he could do, IMO.  But whilst I'm not willing to erase the memory of his career because of his final hours (and I believe it's somewhat naive to think that you can just write someone out of history), personally I've not had the urge to watch any of his matches again specifically, and when I have seen a clip of him I'll admit to finding it a little uncomfortable knowing that that flying headbutt will contribute to the deaths of two innocent people. Benoit's death was the moment that I stopped genuinely caring about wrestlers - I'll admit to shedding a tear when I heard the news. However, having heard what a fucking weirdo and maniac he was through stories shared after his death by many of his contemporaries, I realised that the "Benoit" I admired was just as much a character as Undertaker.  So, no, that DVD has stayed on the shelf.  But I'll not hold it against anyone who DOES want to watch his matches, and I think the WWE shouldn't shy away from including on DVDs, matches that he participated in if it makes sense to do so. I thought the Smackdown DVDs immeasurably diminished by the lack of Benoit. I reckon I'll sit down and watch some of his stuff eventually, but right now it's still TOO REAL TO ME, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Shit Poster Posted March 29, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted March 29, 2011 I can still enjoy Benoit matches. He killed his wife and son because he was ill not that makes it ok to do but he needed help. No one knows what went on in that house over that weekend except for the three people who are dead, before everyone jumps up and says it was double murder suicide that's not what I am pointing at. Usually in cases like Benoit's something pushes you over the edge and causes you to snap and then once you have done it there is no going back. Â I can separate the wrestling great Benoit from the cold callous Benoit because they were two different people. He clearly had some kind of mental problem and maybe even had multiple personalities. At wrestling everyone said he was nice etc at home he could have been a complete cunt. Â His matches are still entertaining and are great to watch. I wouldn't stop listening to my favourite bands music if the lead singer killed someone. Why would I want to not watch Benoit wrestle when it is great to watch. I am not watching him kill anyone just watching his excellence in the ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happ Hazzard Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Is Fred West known for his stirling building work? Is Harold Shipman known for all the good work he did as a GP? Â It's been interesting, since you have shown yourself to be one of the forum's biggest idiots in the various politics threads, how you have suddenly become massively stupid in every other thread you post in too. Like a massive floodgate of stupidity has been opened by your views in the politics thread. You are the UKFF tsunami. A stupid tsunami. Â Plus, I'm going to keep a tally of how many times we see 'Beniot' in this thread. Da Wrestler`s Wrestler DKJ is doing especially well. Quit the bullying shit. Just because someone says something you disagree with in what thread, there's no need to stalk them through the whole board and bring it up in every thread they post in. Grow up and learn to accept that there will always be people in the world with varying views to your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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