AEW WrestleDream 2024

[DavidB6937]

AEW's best chance of becoming a success was always capitalising on WWE's failures. That's why they could launch and become as big as they did in the first place. Lack of competition for WWE led to complacency and a bad product for quite a few years and suddenly there's an opportunity to disrupt.

I do think AEW would be bigger than they are now if WWE hadn't got their shit together.  It's just the fact that there's a finite amount of opportunity in that market and when the leader is firing on all cylinders the competition is going to struggle to grow massively.

Sometimes I think it doesn't actually matter what AEW does in terms of booking or creating new stars or things like that because as we've seen, the high level of PPVs that they put on is quite incredible but it hasn't necessarily turned into massive growth. But is that really on them?

WWE is wrestling to so many. It'd take an absolutely monumental shift at this point to change that. AEW are doing well and they're successful in many ways. But unless WWE fuck up massively somehow - and it's always possible, because we know hot streaks and successes don't last forever - then I'd think TK and AEW will be happy just being stable and winning in their own ways. And we'll still be having these same debates.

[BomberPat]

Yeah, I think there's a definite ceiling for being the "alternative" to WWE - because often the only reason people want an alternative is because the real thing isn't delivering the goods; the people who watched AEW because WWE wasn't fun to watch likely abandoned it the moment WWE started picking up steam again.

"Wait around for the other guys to fuck up" isn't the best business strategy to pitch in a boardroom, but it may well be AEW's best bet - even if we assume there's no new major scandals coming out of the Vince situation, that nobody actively fucks up, and that things keep running smoothly, WWE won't stay hot forever, and the cracks will begin to show once they can't rely on people being impressed by Wrestling 101 stuff after the bar was set so low for years, and if they struggle to build new stars or new compelling storylines once everything surrounding The Bloodline is finally finished up, and the bloom is off the Cody rose (no pun intended). For all the praise of Triple H as a booker, their biggest successes have all been tied to that one story that began before he was in charge. 

AEW are already on track to be, if they aren't already, the most successful number two promotion of all time. That's something that gets overlooked when you're in the weeds obsessing over individual metrics of success or failure, or listening to grifters like Bischoff or Cornette who have a vested interest in handwaving away all of AEW's successes and presenting their own careers as more worthwhile than Tony Khan's. Attendance and TV ratings are in a rough spot, for sure, and that's something they really need to fix, but it's not a doom and gloom situation, and it's obviously not so bad as to prevent them signing multiple new TV deals, the biggest of which (with WBD) seemingly opening the door to further expansion.

 

The other problem, which I think was inevitable over time and had started to impact them (and particularly Cody Rhodes) earlier than is generally acknowledged, but which really went into overdrive after the CM Punk/Elite fight and Punk's eventual departure, is that AEW have really struggled to sell themselves as the feel-good company any more. People turned on Cody for a lot of reasons, but they were all reasons that had been there the entire time, it was nothing new, they were just willing to overlook a lot of the failings of his booking previously because he was the biggest on-screen avatar of AEW, and that carried a lot of goodwill and personal investment in both him and the company's success. Whether that declined for him simply because time passed, or because Tony Khan increasingly became a presence on TV, either in-person or being referred to by other people, and so TK became much more publicly the guy behind AEW, and it no longer felt like a collective effort by Cody Rhodes and The Elite, I don't know, but I think it played a part in it.

Once everything soured with CM Punk, people had less and less reason to have goodwill behind the success of the company in its own right. It's no longer a promotion that people are invested in because they were invested in the collective journeys of the wrestlers who brought it into being, it's just a second wrestling promotion run by a billionaire. Again, it was always going to happen eventually, but it all happened more abruptly than it otherwise would have done. That means audiences are less likely to extend their goodwill to cover for the company's failings, and the company's shows need to work harder to stand up on their own merit - PPV is doing that consistently, TV is anything but consistent.

Part of the reason All In was so good is that it felt like a celebration, in the way that early AEW did, that it brought together stars and styles of wrestling that AEW have always championed, and that often WWE hasn't, and it rewarded you for caring about it. All Out took that celebration and turned it on its head, but in a way that still made you care. The build for Wrestledream really struggled to keep that momentum rolling, and whether Wrestledream itself managed to build on it is entirely going to depend on the follow-up on TV, and where they go with the Moxley angle. 

[RedTwoster]

46 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

I do think AEW would be bigger than they are now if WWE hadn't got their shit together.  It's just the fact that there's a finite amount of opportunity in that market and when the leader is firing on all cylinders the competition is going to struggle to grow massively.

That definitely didn’t help, but it didn’t help further that this happened at a time when AEW’s creative was on a downward trend, and then you had the fiasco with Punk disrupting things further.

People were given reasons to switch off or switch over at a time when WWE was telling its best story in decades in the Bloodline plot - it was very unfortunate for AEW. 

16 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

"Wait around for the other guys to fuck up" isn't the best business strategy to pitch in a boardroom, but it may well be AEW's best bet

I think you’re spot on. If you’re enjoying everything WWE is doing right now and watch Raw, Smackdown and potentially even NXT, the time commitment alone might put you off giving AEW a try/another try. If we were in a situation in which both companies had only one show each I really do think we’d see a level of parity in fan interest. AEW’s duff run creatively is long behind them.

Edited October 14, 2024 by RedTwoster

[LaGoosh]

Some good discussion on a range of discussions here. A few points from me:

- WWE's booking philosophy seems very much inspired by the MCU. It's long term, safe and predictable, and often based around "moments", surprise returns and big entrance pops. It obviously works incredibly for them and their fan base. AEW's booking philosophy has never been clear but at it's best it's been slow burn character work based around the matches themselves and characters changing through struggle and pain (either physical or mental). AEW's booking is richer, deeper, and designed to be more satisfying longer term but unlikely to draw people in as quickly or easily as WWE's easier to digest stuff. And that's even without AEW's ongoing issues with consistency. On top of that the WWE audience is used to a certain type of wrestling and seem to reject anything that isn't that. AEW's strengths of being an alternative to the WWE style will probably also limit their growth.

- Did I see ratings chat? AEW just scored a huge TV rights deal so we probably don't actually know shit about the ratings. Recent DVR figures show that 1m people are still watching Dynamite each week, just usually spread out over the following days rather than live.

- Bad faith takes. It can't be denied that for some reason AEW gets never ending bad faith takes. Even on this board which is mostly good. Everyone and their Mum on here jumps in the AEW threads whether they watch it or not. But any reasonable comparisons in the WWE threads gets immediately shot down. It's really genuinely fucking weird how quickly people are to knock the company that basically saved modern pro wrestling from the toilet for any small reason.

- I think you can pinpoint AEW's downturn pretty exactly to CM Punk having a meltdown. It seemed the backstage stuff around it, booking and the public perception was completely derailed by it. If only CM Punk could have withstood the diabolic, evil machinations of those fiends the Young Bucks.

- Wrestling is niche. The WWE audience will always be a mix of the long time adults and a rotation of kids who get into it then grow out of it. But it's not like outside that there's a huge other audience hungry for wrestling. AEW will always be living mostly off people who have decided WWE isn't for them. That's never going to be a big audience. 

[TheBurningRed]

The person behind Moxley and co who have shown them what to do?

Big Mo

[Hannibal Scorch]

30 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Some good discussion on a range of discussions here. A few points from me:

- WWE's booking philosophy seems very much inspired by the MCU. It's long term, safe and predictable, and often based around "moments", surprise returns and big entrance pops. It obviously works incredibly for them and their fan base. AEW's booking philosophy has never been clear but at it's best it's been slow burn character work based around the matches themselves and characters changing through struggle and pain (either physical or mental). AEW's booking is richer, deeper, and designed to be more satisfying longer term but unlikely to draw people in as quickly or easily as WWE's easier to digest stuff. And that's even without AEW's ongoing issues with consistency. On top of that the WWE audience is used to a certain type of wrestling and seem to reject anything that isn't that. AEW's strengths of being an alternative to the WWE style will probably also limit their growth.

- Did I see ratings chat? AEW just scored a huge TV rights deal so we probably don't actually know shit about the ratings. Recent DVR figures show that 1m people are still watching Dynamite each week, just usually spread out over the following days rather than live.

- Bad faith takes. It can't be denied that for some reason AEW gets never ending bad faith takes. Even on this board which is mostly good. Everyone and their Mum on here jumps in the AEW threads whether they watch it or not. But any reasonable comparisons in the WWE threads gets immediately shot down. It's really genuinely fucking weird how quickly people are to knock the company that basically saved modern pro wrestling from the toilet for any small reason.

- I think you can pinpoint AEW's downturn pretty exactly to CM Punk having a meltdown. It seemed the backstage stuff around it, booking and the public perception was completely derailed by it. If only CM Punk could have withstood the diabolic, evil machinations of those fiends the Young Bucks.

- Wrestling is niche. The WWE audience will always be a mix of the long time adults and a rotation of kids who get into it then grow out of it. But it's not like outside that there's a huge other audience hungry for wrestling. AEW will always be living mostly off people who have decided WWE isn't for them. That's never going to be a big audience. 

Is… is this what cinema is?

[LaGoosh]

31 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

… is this what cinema is?

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

1 hour ago, LaGoosh said:

AEW just scored a huge TV rights deal

A lot of what you say makes a lot of sense Gooshy but I have to pick you up on this. AEW have secured a huge increase on their TV rights deal but its not a huge deal per se. The NFL TV rights deal is worth 111 billion dollars over 11 years. The NBA deal is worth 76 billion over the same time frame. The WNBA deal is worth about 2.2 billion over the same. The Premier League Football deal is 8.4 billion dollars for 4 years just in the US. As Bomber Pat said, wrestling is cheap TV to make, its not a huge deal, its a good deal for WBD because it provides a lot more content than just the TV. 

[Supremo]

6 hours ago, Duke said:

It's obviously bad faith to say "AEW are just too clever for some people", but I do think that they reward investing in their product more than WWE do.

I’m not sure this is necessarily the case anymore. Certainly not for the last six to twelve months, anyway.

As someone who watches and enjoys both products, I think WWE’s recent success  can definitely be attributed to how they’ve developed a far more consistent product that rewards you over time. Of the two companies, it’s now WWE that I believe has a massive Excel document or, “Show Bible,” that they refer to in order to keep stories and characters tight, allowing for causation and callbacks. Ironically, it’s AEW that’s became more of the Vince-style product. Scatter-brained, where things chop and change, make no sense and oftentimes fizzle out without conclusion.

I’m reminded of this clip, where the South Park writers describe what makes a good story. Your beats have to connect in interesting ways. There has to be a through line of things you can follow, rather than just a collection of stuff happening.

I’d argue AEW have become terrible at this. There’s loads of shit just thrown at the wall. There isn’t a through line. Things change on a dime. Remember when Jay White injured Darby and stole Sting’s bat? Well don’t remember it because we aren’t bothering to pay it off.

There are countless recent examples. The Elite vs. Tony Khan started great, and that segment where Tony returned with Darby and the flamethrower was awesome, but where did it go? Did it end? Are they still battling over power? What was the point? I can’t even remember who won Blood and Guts. The only resultant development appears to be Christopher Daniels stinking up my screen.

The worst example is MJF and Adam Cole. Absolutely insane that they didn’t just drop that entirely. Cole running out as if he was the babyface looking for revenge, rather than the dastardly heel who ruined Max’s life with a gang of goons, was so messy it’d make your head explode trying to understand it.

I don’t know whether WWE have just been luckier with injuries, or whether it’s because they paint in broader strokes, but I feel like if Rhea Ripley had gotten injured in 2024 in AEW, things would have been very different. They wouldn’t have spent four months building a brilliant, hammy love triangle with Liv and Dom that ultimately paid off perfectly. Liv would have split from Dom and became a babyface before Rhea even came back.

[d-d-d-dAz]

I think there's an element of AEW fans still railing against the WWE of Vince McMahon, because that's the point in which they may have jumped off the boat.

Like, if you look at the Bloodline saga that's been at the top of the card for 3 or 4 years and is still the hottest thing in the company, and still makes me punch the air at the slightest subtle hint or nod.

Both companies can do long term.

I tend to think if there's a venn diagram I'm sat somewhere in the middle. I don't agree with either the WWE or AEW ultras, and I'm just happy to be living through a time of quality professional wrestling where 'which is the best company' tends to ebb and flow.

Edited October 14, 2024 by d-d-d-dAz

[LaGoosh]

21 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

AEW have secured a huge increase on their TV rights deal but its not a huge deal per se

I meant a huge deal for them. I know it's pretty miniscule in comparison to the big boys.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

9 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

big boys

WCW?

[LaGoosh]

16 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Both companies can do long term.

Personally I'd like less long term. Wrestling fans have equated long term with good. I reckon most long stories in wrestling could probably be done in half the time without losing anything. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Supremo said:

I’d argue AEW have become terrible at this. There’s loads of shit just thrown at the wall. There isn’t a through line. Things change on a dime. Remember when Jay White injured Darby and stole Sting’s bat? Well don’t remember it because we aren’t bothering to pay it off.

I want to argue with this point but no, I absolutely do not remember this. 

Edited October 14, 2024 by Duke

[mim731]

42 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

I tend to think if there's a venn diagram I'm sat somewhere in the middle. I don't agree with either the WWE or AEW ultras, and I'm just happy to be living through a time of quality professional wrestling where 'which is the best company' tends to ebb and flow.

I think this is where I sit these days too. I don't feel strongly enough for any kind of tribalism so I just quite like it when both companies are putting out enjoyable work.