AEW WrestleDream 2024

[Supremo]

7 hours ago, Devon Malcolm said:

Who the fuck is getting accreditation for these stupid scrums and why do they keep having them anyway? Outside of stoned Cody and Jey, and CM Punk and his muffin, they are the crappest new thing in wrestling in forever.

How could you forget to mention The Undisputed Queen of the Post-show Presser!

Half the reason Toni’s character developed and became such a huge hit was her just dicking about in that unscripted setting. Clearly the funniest and most naturally witty person in the business. Blows my mind they didn’t shop around a reality TV show featuring her and Juice when trying to secure the new deal!

I agree on the whole though. The post-show press conferences add almost nothing and usually cause more harm than good when the heads of the company can’t answer real questions beyond, “why are you so brilliant?” An experiment worth trying, sure, but one that someone needs to now declare a failure.

This was a mostly good show that I mostly didn’t care about. Good wrestlers doing some good wrestling in front of my eyes. Crap build, cold product, excellent workers. This talent deserves better. Willow especially. Stealing the show everywhere she goes. However, Chris Jericho and Private Party can fuck off. Instant fast forward material.

That ending sure was something though. Reason seven hundred and ninety three why Bryan Danielson is the greatest of all time. Not happy recreating his famous victory at Wrestlemania 30 in Wembley Stadium, he recreated Wrestlemania 30 again a few weeks later by doing his own version of Brock Lesnar breaking The Undertaker’s Streak! Go back and watch the crowd when the ref calls for the bell. It’s that exact same sense of, “fucking hell, no way!” Everyone jumps to their feet in shock. Wild. I didn’t think it would really work, doing the Ric Flair retirement stipulation with a heel beating him, but in that moment it felt massive. Mox and the Blackpool Bastards Club feel white hot now. Shower of pricks. Save us, Kenny Omega.

Anyone shocked that Bryan Danielson went out in a snuff film wasn’t a real fan of Bryan Danielson. He was always going to do this, the fucking sicko. Went out exactly how he wanted to. On a stretcher, the last remnants of his neck blowing away like dust in the wind, doing everything he could to set the table for those that follow. Waited until AEW secured the Warner Brothers bag. Gave Moxley his best match in years. Left Orange Cassidy and Darby Allin as the Top Babyface Elects. What a fucking man. Greatest of all time.

Edited October 14, 2024 by Supremo

[DavidB6937]

1 hour ago, Supremo said:

This was a mostly good show that I mostly didn’t care about. Good wrestlers doing some good wrestling in front of my eyes. Crap build, cold product, excellent workers. This talent deserves better. Willow especially.

And I think that's where a lot of the frustration comes in. When we've seen PPV builds that have been better and instead this slipped more into the ROH mentality of PPVs where you just expect a bunch of good matches. Which is fine to a point but it's nice to have more things to be invested in. The talent are more than capable.

Its no surprise WWE managed to get back some magic and business success following a long story that people cared about. Wrestling has always been like that.

No ones questioning the talent or the performances or anything like that. We all know it's a stacked roster and some great people backstage. It just needs a little more consistent guidance and booking.. and that's not a new criticism.

[JLM]

On 10/13/2024 at 8:40 AM, FLips said:

I skimmed through the show and I've got to say, I don't think AEW has ever been less appealing to me. Hangman off the back of his big heel turn and win against Swerve just trading a nothing win with (last time I was watching also heel) Jay White

I have no issue with AEW being entirely unappealing to you right now, people like different things, this is fine. I do take issue with this bit though. Hangman tried to murder Juice Robinson, he attacked the Gunns, he is storyline credited with taking out Jay White. Jay White has returned as a babyface with his primary mission being revenge against Hangman. 

The build for the PPV hasn't been great, but complaining about stuff that HAS been explained because you didn't watch it is not a great look. Are we allowed to pull the "I THOUGHT YOU DIDN'T WATCH IT/CAN WE NOT???/WHY DO YOU HATEWATCH THIS THING YOU DON'T LIKE" responses in AEW threads or is that WWE-exclusive? 

*Standard "I watch both products please don't call me a tribal fan/AEW police/AEW Die-hard/I'm currently reviewing and enjoying NXT every week"* Disclaimer goes here. But @Hannibal Scorch is right about the double standard. 

Also: 

Wrestledream 2024

Pre-Show:

ROH TV Title: Atlantis Jr. vs Brian Cage

Solid opener. Atlantis the babyface underdog trying to outspeed the heel powerhouse. They worked well together, they had the crowd and there were plenty of big flashy looking moves as is the Brian Cage way. Better than expected as I haven't enjoyed much of Atlantis Jr.'s ROH/AEW run. Little bit surprised to see Cage win.

Harley Cameron vs Anna Jay 

Given the experience/ability levels this was a perfectly serviceable TV/pre-show match. Anna looks more composed and comfortable than she did pre-Stardom tour and Cameron usually performs beyond her experience level. However, it was dragged down by one very awkward looking moment where they did a bunch of 2-count roll up pins and Harley waited for Anna to run round to the other side of her to do the move. Then, even worse, for the finish Harley's shoulder wasn't pinned properly, so the ref blatantly pushed it down onto the mat right in front of the camera! 

Don't know what the hell he was thinking. I've seen it happen so many times where the ref just does the exaggerated checking and double checking and just tells the wrestlers the shoulders aren't down and delays counting until they are. This is fine as it's what the ref would do if it's real. It might make the finish slightly worse if they take too long to fix it and therefore the count is really delayed but it is SO MUCH BETTER than the ref basically interfering in the match to help Anna Jay win! Absolutely awful. 

MXM vs The Acclaimed

Quality tag match, MXM haven't had a bad match since joining AEW and this was as good as any of them. Rico was a very fun surprise, did not see that one coming at all. Easily the best match on the pre-show

Tony Khan with the Inoki grandsons bit was excruciating in that special Tony Khan way. Good grief. 

Dark Order/Premier Athletes vs Conglomeration/Outrunners

Incredible heat for the Outrunners, you love to see it. Cannot beat a Turbo Floyd hot tag, damn near blew the roof off the place. Again, please get OC involved in something real so he's not a Rampage/pre-show multiman guy. It's just not right. 

Main Show:

Hangman vs Jay White

I bloody loved this match. I am such a massive fan of Jay White's counter-wrestling, cerebral style with the answers to opponent's signature moves and all the other little smart tactical tricks he uses. Suckering the opponent in, sometimes even intentionally taking punishment purely to set up something even more advantageous for himself. This had that in spades but also a more intense and physical Jay White than we normally see, which was perfect given HE was the one out for revenge in this particular Hangman match. 

Then we had the wonderful heat from Swerve's hometown crowd and Hangman playing to that beautifully, doing excessively violent shit, goading the fans and also being a petty little baby at times. I particularly loved him yelling "These fans are disrespecting me!" to the ref as if he expected him to do something about it. On top of all of that these two just have excellent chemistry together. Everything played into the finish perfectly too, one of those endings where I knew exactly how it would go down and still found it immensely satisfying. Belter of an opener, Hangman continues his sensational run and it is so good to have Jay White back. 

Willow vs Mariah

This was great! Trust Wilow with no build and no chance of winning to still deliver a banger. Again the crowd was really hot for it which always helps, but this was also easily Mariah's best match in AEW aside from Wembley. Hard-hitting, intense, Willow overwhelmingly powerful on offense but Mariah consistently finding ways to survive and turn the tables. Some really cool spots I hadn't seen before too, Willow bashing Mariah's head into her own knee was a great one, and Mariah headbutting Willow to counter the pounce completely caught me off guard. Very impressive that Mariah could hit the Mayday also. Over-delivered considering how little care went into throwing it on the card. Also noted they both had very swish looking PPV special ring gear. I always appreciate them doing something a bit different for the big matches. Would love AEW to spend some of that rights money on jazzing up the ramp/entrance/set for the PPVs so they look fancier than Dynamite, but not holding my breath on that one. 

Shibata vs Perry

Really enjoyed seeing Shibata all fired up and motivated, most of this match was a lot of fun. Similar to the previous match, Perry getting his arse kicked but finding ways to survive or sneak his way back into it. The finish I didn't love. I totally get it, Perry losing but finds a way to scheme his way out of it, but the commentators sold it like he'd cheated or something. I think the concept is perfect but didn't like the execution. He just outsmarted Shibata, who looked a bit stupid keeping the hold on as the referee counted. 

Garcia/MJF/Cole Business

I was actually quite into the idea of Danny going for the TNT title. A rematch with MJF with Danny winning this time would also be acceptable. Adam Cole vs MJF again does not appeal AT ALL. The Undisputed Kingdom failed so hard that Cole has circled back round to being a babyface just by going away and pretending it never happened.

Ospreay vs Takeshita vs Ricochet

Bloody hell this was insane. Like even knowing this line up and what manner of preposterously videogamey shit they'd do to each other, it was still absolutely jaw-dropping to watch. All of the best and worst excesses of all three guys. Yep some of the no-selling was way too far, yep there was plenty of obvious co-operation and moments of hesitation/moving into position to set up the things, but on balance I simply don't care because it was just such a glorious batshit spectacle from three superhumans. I don't want every match on the show to be this but, when you have some of the very best in the world at this at your disposal, I will happily sit and marvel at it for 20 minutes. Beastly performance from Takeshita too, adding a powerhouse/strike monster to the mix to fight these two acrobats just widened the scope of what they could throw into such a nutty spotfest. The New Japan commentators called his big wind up elbow/fore-arm smash that sounds like a cricket bat hitting a 6 the "World Class Elbow". Would like the AEW commentators to adopt that because it truly is.  Screwy(driver-y) finish aside, it was also lovely to see Takeshita finally win a title. 

OC/Jerry Lynn Thing

I really really hope this is the start of a new OC arc so I can stop moaning about him being completely squandered. Also funny to hear two people back to back call him "Orange" like that's a person's first name.

MVP/Swerve things

Mostly there to get Swerve out there for the Tacoma hero's welcome and it was an excellent response. Good promo taking ownership of his shit and clearly stating his loyalty to Nana as expected. MVP always sounds excellent. 

Mortos/Hologram

If this had been earlier on the card it would have killed. Positioning this AFTER the Takeshita/Ricochet/Ospreay match and immediately after the hometown hero segment was really tough. They still did lots of fun lucha things and I very much enjoyed it, but you could tell the crowd was recovering and not at full energy for it. I'd have loved a Mortos win here also, freshly in LFI and gives Hologram some adversity rather than purely being exhibition high spot man. 

Darby/Brody King

These two are just so ideally matched, the perfect David and Goliath pairing. The way Brody can throw him around like a sack of spuds is amazing. Loved Darby going to the hanging sleeper spot as a little call back. Squashing Darby's mid-section with the steps was a novel one. Other than that the classic Darby formula of him taking a hell of a beating, refusing to die and then digging deep to pull out the win. Good stuff.

Private Party vs Bucks

Pre-match Private Party video with Amazing Red was very cool. Took a while to get the people on board as nobody was really buying Private Party winning this. To their credit created enough hope/enthusiasm that there was a big "Private Party" chant towards the end and the near falls were all hitting. Not for me, though, I didn't ever buy Private Party winning this and this late in the show I needed to believe that to overcome the fatigue. 

Chris Jericho vs Mark Briscoe

It was better than the average current day Jericho singles match, largely thanks to Briscoe's incredible connection with the audience adding a ton of heat to it. Criminal that this was on the card at all though, and that THIS is what they have Mark Briscoe doing. 

Moxley vs Danielson

Attacking just before the Final Countdown chorus hit was more despicable than the dreaded horror bag. This was a tremendous match. The nuclear heat for the opening bell was spine tingling and I was on the edge of my seat desperately willing Danielson to win for the entire duration. I love it when the wrestling makes me feel things, and the sheer consistency with which Danielson has done that for me over the years is why #i think he's the greatest to ever do it. The ending was fucking heartbreaking. I hated it because I wanted Danielson to win though. I was devastated. I wasn't upset by the bag at All Out and I wasn't here either. It was discussed ad nauseum after that show but, to reiterate: I am 100% aware it's not for everyone and I think that is absolutely fine. Yuta's betrayal was heinous, but I loved the terribly sad shots of OC and Darby, with Allin crushed that he couldn't stop it, and OC looking like a fire has just been lit underneath him. All I have wanted for what seems like forever was for them to stop wasting OC and this felt extremely encouraging. Gutted about the result but I am excited for what the aftermath sets up. 

A waaaay less consistent show than All Out with a very cobbled together build. Lots of sloppy and scattershot booking in AEW as has been well documented. I will be complaining about Statlander for months to come. She wasn't even on this show but Mone appearing on screen just reminded me again how  annoyed I am about it. A good chunk of the show managed to over-deliver in spite of this, as is the AEW way. Hologram/Mortos, Private Party Bucks and SHibata/Perry were all good/very good TV matches but didn't all need to be on a long PPV. Briscoe/Jericho didn't need to be booked anywhere at all.

Hangman/White, Willow/Mariah, Ospreay/Takeshita/Ricochet, Darby/King and the main event were all very good to excellent though, and I like the directions set up by the ending. As @Jesse says, Takeshita finally getting some gold is a positive take away.

I'll probably edit this in a few days when I process that Danielson has really packed it in and just edit in a sad face emoji. The best pro wrestler. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2024 by JLM

[Supremo]

I’d probably complain a lot more if the show itself wasn’t so clearly aware of its faults, and so blatant in attempting to course correct.

I came away from this show far more excited about the future than before. It was made crystal clear that there’d been changes in creative, new directions were coming, with new guys being hand-selected as the top guys going forward. All my boys, too. Takeshita, Darby, Orange and Garcia. Let’s fucking go, lads!

The Orange Cassidy one was the most ridiculously obvious. Might as well have had Jerry Lynn turn to the camera.

”Hi everyone watching at home. Just to let to let know that Jimmy Jacobs has been binned off, thing are changing, this great man will be immediately freed from The Vortex and pushed as the top star he should be.”

Orange Cassidy winning the Continental Classic please, Jerry!

[LaGoosh]

The more I think about the ending angle the more I like it. 

Danielson has already had a retirement. He had his ultimate feel good moment at Wrestlemania 30 and All In. This was the only way out. He had to basically die.

And it contrasted so perfectly with Sting's retirement at Revolution earlier this year. Sting went out in celebration, with everyone happy and over the moon. One of the warmest, feel good moments in wrestling ever. But Danielson...just depressing, ugly violence and pain. Wrestlers and fans in shock. Excalibur in tears. Utterly bleak.

Mox has been cryptically saying for weeks that a war was coming. But what he really meant was that he was going to start it. Mox planned this all along. His mission statement is to rule and rebuild AEW in his own image. Turn it into a jungle where only the strongest and most violent survive and thrive. To do this he needs to shake the entire roster out of their comfort zone. And the only way to start this process was to murder the hero of AEW. 

I can't wait to see where this all goes.

[DavidB6937]

I'm definitely feeling positive about the future. But then I've always in general felt positive about AEW. It's just perhaps a little more hesitantly now simply because they're prone to repeating the same mistakes.

So while it seems like there's some great talent there ready to be pushed and capitalised on, only time will tell on that. I certainly hope so but we've often identified key players who have then disappeared to the back again after a short time.

[FLips]

49 minutes ago, JLM said:

I have no issue with AEW being entirely unappealing to you right now, people like different things, this is fine. I do take issue with this bit though. Hangman tried to murder Juice Robinson, he attacked the Gunns, he is storyline credited with taking out Jay White. Jay White has returned as a babyface with his primary mission being revenge against Hangman.

That's absolutely fair and you're right, I'm not giving it enough credit and omitting important information to try and make my own point. Though I do stand by that Hangman shouldn't be coming off one of the biggest wins of his career and losing, because it's AEW's previous form for this that is one of the reasons the product is ice cold for me right now.

[Hannibal Scorch]

Just now, FLips said:

That's absolutely fair and you're right, I'm not giving it enough credit and omitting important information to try and make my own point. Though I do stand by that Hangman shouldn't be coming off one of the biggest wins of his career and losing, because it's AEW's previous form for this that is one of the reasons the product is ice cold for me right now.

I’m trying to understand why. Yes, if you’re taking it purely on a result fine. But in a company that were constantly told don’t tell stories, when they do it’s almost ignored. Hangman is not being rational. Not thinking straight. He’s full of rage and this blindsided him when a methodical wrestler outsmarts him. Not everyone has to go on an undefeated streak, unless they are at the top of the card (and even then, it’s not essential). 
 

As to previous form I understand having reservations, we’ve all done it at one time. But now whilst that doubt might be at the back of my mind, I try and let it play out in the hope they don’t let me down again otherwise it’s a miserable watch.

Whilst I don’t agree with the tweet being replied to completely. I do agree with this QT 

 

[d-d-d-dAz]

If the argument has descended to 'its always good, the audience is just too stupid to understand' we're all fucked and may as well watch something else anyway.

Plus, it's unquestionably bad booking if you're consciously creating a product that you know 75% of the audience won't get or don't want.

Absolute horse shit of the highest order. Complete nonsense. 

AEW is a good product with high points and low points, exactly the same as WWE or any other wrestling company. It's not an elevated experience, it's not smarter. It's distinct because of its willingness to embrace various styles as opposed to trying to create a house style, and it gives its talent some more creative freedom. But that's it. It's still guilty of mis steps and poor booking and the usual wrestling clunkiness.

Honestly, 'people are too stupid to enjoy aew' or 'it's too subtle for these morons' are arguments enough to make me stop watching. What arseholes.

[FLips]

2 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

I’m trying to understand why. Yes, if you’re taking it purely on a result fine. But in a company that were constantly told don’t tell stories, when they do it’s almost ignored. Hangman is not being rational. Not thinking straight. He’s full of rage and this blindsided him when a methodical wrestler outsmarts him. Not everyone has to go on an undefeated streak, unless they are at the top of the card (and even then, it’s not essential). 
 

As to previous form I understand having reservations, we’ve all done it at one time. But now whilst that doubt might be at the back of my mind, I try and let it play out in the hope they don’t let me down again otherwise it’s a miserable watch.

Whilst I don’t agree with the tweet being replied to completely. I do agree with this QT 

 

I think it's a bit of a vicious circle with AEW. Doing your character work and stories over long periods of time being told mostly in online exclusive segments or in matches is fine if you watch the product religiously; I was lucky enough to be watching it that much during the Hangman/Dark Order stuff and it paid off for sure. The issue is as soon as you fall out of that loop, it's very difficult to get back in and understand the intricacies unless you start committing full time to the shows and online content again.

I don't watch AEW these days outside of catching the odd PPV and watching clips on Youtube/Reddit so for me as a casual viewer of them currently, it is purely on results and that has came across to me as Hangman and Swerve having a major blood feud that has ended up with the show's biggest babyface now being the show's biggest heel (or one of) and they followed that up by having him face someone who just returned and he lost. I'm sure if you watch week to week it tells a wonderful story, but from the outside looking in it doesn't fill me with encouragement to come watch.

I know WWE are far from perfect, but sometimes you need a big promo or you need the story spelling out to you to get you hooked back in and they do that so well when they need to. You can be like me and not watch WWE for years and you can flick an episode of Raw on or watch some clips on Youtube and there's going to be at least one or two big promos or segments to get you invested, and then you can soak the rest up from there. As someone who just wants to be entertained, trying to get back into a wrestling show but having to "read the subtle body language" isn't cutting it for me. Give me a 10 minute Cody promo to hype up the PPV and I'm on board.

The fact so many viewers for AEW have dropped off as time has went on likely means I'm not the only one in that boat.

[Supremo]

Bryan Danielson, explaining to Tony Khan that AEW’s bad timeline can all be pinpointed back to when Jon Moxley lost the World Title to CM Punk at All Out 2022.

Everything was better before then, when Moxley was a motivated World Champion, they focussed on home-grown talent built during the Pandemic and Jimmy Jacobs didn’t work there. God bless Bryan for being willing to die in order to reset the timeline and destroy the Punk Sports Almanac. We’re right back where we should be. Mox has the belt. In shape. Dialed in. Carrying the company. And your top guys are all homegrown AEW Pure Bloods. Might as well have had Jerry Lynn step out of a shower and pretend the last few years never happened.

This, from the presser, is brilliant. Nigel losing his nemesis and realising how much he needed him. Joker losing Batman.

There’s money to be made with Nigel stepping up to defend Bryan’s legacy. I wouldn’t be against him being Moxley’s first Title defence (“Kane”). Someone who can lose to Mox, but still make it interesting and dramatic. Fill some time until Eddie Kingston comes back to fight this prick.

@JLM’s brilliant review made me go back and watch the start of the main event again. Like a mini-Anarchy in the Arena with them brawling whilst the music was still playing. The rush just before they ring the bell is incredible. Talk about going out on top. He’s the best ever.

But yeah. You assume Bryan’s retirement will have emphasis on, “full time career.” I expect/hope he’ll come back healthy enough for a few big Special Attraction matches. He never had the singles matches with Darby or Orange! That’s why I’m more convinced than ever that something changed around All Out, they got a far scarier MRI than anyone expected, so they had to rush to finish things up. In retrospect it seems crazy one of his final few matches was wasted on Jack Perry. Again though. You’d expect nothing less from the most selfless man in the history of the business. If he can’t give Darby or Orange the singles matches, he’ll give them his Life Force, pass them the baton, and anoint them the new Top Babyfaces.

[tiger_rick]

51 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Honestly, 'people are too stupid to enjoy aew' or 'it's too subtle for these morons' are arguments enough to make me stop watching. What arseholes.

I doubt anyone is too stupid for it (other than the knuckle-draggers who chanted "Thank you, Vince") because I watch it and I'm a fucking idiot. But there is clearly a massive element of people who either are too bad faith to recognise that it's just different to what they normally consume or are people who are so used to the WWE hitting them over the head with stuff that they just don't get it. Personally, I think it's obviously the first one. And I say that because whenever WWE do stuff that requires some effort, people are all over social media rejoicing like they've just cracked the enigma code.

I'm fine with it. People have said they're not watching WWE for 20 years, then watched it and moaned about it. Now people who don't watch AEW are picking at their product out of loyalty to "their" team. It's all pathetic but that's wrestling. 

The funny thing is, it's fucking easy to potshot AEW. Even fans do it all the time. The crowds are depressing. The stop/start pushes are frustrating. Unexplained absences are a nightmare. Putting ROH on mainstream TV is incredulous.

Picking on one of their strengths, that they make the wrestling matches count and they tell stories through the outcomes and the aftermath is the worst bad faith acting. 

[Hannibal Scorch]

To be fair @FLips a lot of the matches did have promos or hype segments leading up to the PPV or matches which set them up. So it’s either because you’re not watching the shows (which you have already confirmed)or the social media team aren’t putting out the important clips, that people aren’t hyped. And that’s not me knocking, I get it, but I would say they have been better at it of late, I think anyway.

Also @d-d-d-dAz I agreed with the sentiment but not the way it was presented. I don’t think it’s a wild accusation to say that the leader in sports entertainment is a more in your face with the story / obvious product. It’s been an argument made all the time for decades, and it is something all it’s successful competitors have tried to deviate from in various ways of the years with various levels of success. In fact you could look at the last 15 months or so of AEW and some of those stories were told exactly as they would have been presented in WWE and ratings dropped. I am hoping that this is a  hard reset on the overall direction. But I don’t think anyone is stupid for liking one company over another. The only time I do is when there are clearly bad faith arguments.

Edited October 14, 2024 by Hannibal Scorch

[DavidB6937]

I think also there's a tendency to think that any criticism is coming from bad faith and tribalism when actually:

1) We're all different

2) We all like different things

3) We all want different things from the product

Sure, we're wrestling fans, but as we've established before - it's a fucking massive wide spectrum where 'wrestling' is something unique from one person to the next.

So it doesn't really mean any of us are wrong per se. I mean there's some horrible shit takes, and some people ARE very tribalistic and tend to want to defend absolutely everything from criticism, but on the whole our "arguments" are based in opinion. And that's why they often go round in circles because it's hard to convince someone that didn't like something that it's actually great when on their level it isn't. That's just life. Some people like sauce. Others don't.

[tiger_rick]

4 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

I think also there's a tendency to think that any criticism is coming from bad faith and tribalism

No, not any criticism. There's plenty that is fair to criticise. There are examples above. This specifically stemmed from the oft-repeated debate about whether AEW tells stories. And whether those stories are too subtle for some minds. The "AEW doesn't tell stories" crowd are absolutely bad faith actors.

I'm sure there's plenty the other way too but the Facebook algorithm doesn't care enough to suggest them to be all the bleeding time.

11 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

So it doesn't really mean any of us are wrong per se. 

The most David sentence ever.