What are you watching? Part 6312

[The Gaffer]

Triple H/Michaels from the December 29th, 2003 Raw. 

A belting TV title match and actually probably my favourite from their much maligned two year feud.

I know Triple H was the devil at the time, Bret seems to have become the sympathetic 'winner' of Montreal again in recent years, and anything with these two combined is typically seen as the two bosom buddies eating up TV time but when they're on form like this it's fully deserved. They were the best in the business on this night. 

One of those "Nobody's going to watch this episode anyway, just give them half an hour" magic moments. 

 

[RIDDUM_N_STYLE]

The past two nights I’ve been on a WarGames kick after Survivor Series so decided to fire up the Network and put on some WCW events that had WarGames matches as main events

Monday I put on Fall Brawl 93 which had Sting, Davey Boy, Dustin Rhodes and Shockmaster v Sid, Vader and Harlem Heat in the double cage but also had a great Ric Flair v Rick Rude match on the undercard for the Big Gold Belt

Last night I put on Wrestle War 91 which had a WarGames match of Sting, Flyin’ Brian and the Steiners v Flair, Barry Windham, Sid and Larry Zbyszko that’s infamous for Sid trying to power bomb Pillman and dropping him on his neck because the cage roof was too low and also had a big ol’ hossfight between Stan Hansen and Vader

[Carbomb]

9 hours ago, Gay as FOOK said:

Triple H/Michaels from the December 29th, 2003 Raw. 

A belting TV title match and actually probably my favourite from their much maligned two year feud.

I know Triple H was the devil at the time, Bret seems to have become the sympathetic 'winner' of Montreal again in recent years, and anything with these two combined is typically seen as the two bosom buddies eating up TV time but when they're on form like this it's fully deserved. They were the best in the business on this night. 

One of those "Nobody's going to watch this episode anyway, just give them half an hour" magic moments. 

 

It was partly that, but, from what I remember at the time, the reason why the feud was so maligned was that it was just fucking interminable. They had great matches, but, after a point, those weren't enough to cut through the stench of sheer fucking boredom by about a year in. 

That streetfight that was HBK's return was an awesome bit of work by both guys, and the WMXX main event with [------] was an highlight to it as well, but put it this way: it went on so long, that I have trouble remembering which match would've been the right time to finish. They've all just blurred into each other.

That's a really good selection you've linked to, though.

[LaGoosh]

Probably will give that one a miss. I once read somewhere that almost all of Triple H's offense is based on irish whips and once you see it you can't unsee it. As time has gone on I've liked him less and less I think. For someone of his long career he hasn't had anywhere enough classics to be considered one of the greats in my opinion and has dropped the ball in enough big matches that I think his reputation as a main event level performer is questionable. He definitely requires a more talented opponent to take the lead to deliver a good match. Crazy that his in-ring peaked in late 99/early 2000. And I don't think I've found any babyface as difficult to root for as post return HBK. I love watching mid-90s cokehead HBK however.

I've been trying to watch one match I haven't seen before every day on the train home from work. Recently I've just been stuck watching Stan Hansen. He's the absolute best. Crazy that he was having such incredible matches in Japan during the Monday night wars where the majority of matches were terrible. I'd like to watch some Bull Nakano if anyone has any particular recommendations? Haven't seen a full match of hers before but absolutely love her look.

Edited December 1, 2022 by LaGoosh

[BomberPat]

26 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

I'd like to watch some Bull Nakano if anyone has any particular recommendations? Haven't seen a full match of hers before but absolutely love her look.

Bull vs. Aja Kong in a cage is one of the maddest and best cage matches you'll ever see - just an ugly brawl, in the best possible way, from start to finish, with their seconds throwing in increasingly weird weapons throughout: 

 

Her match with Akira Hokuto is another great one:

 

In general, though, if it's the look and general vibe of her as a monster heel that appeals to you, then there's something to enjoy in pretty much every Bull Nakano match. 

 

And as a bonus, a young Bull Nakano & Dump Matsumoto vs. The Crush Gals - if you've never seen a Crush Gals match before, you're in for a treat. The best babyface act in history, and everything they do is accompanied by absolutely wild teenage girl screaming. 

 

[LaGoosh]

Fucking lovely! Thanks mate. Will get on them quick.

[Carbomb]

49 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Probably will give that one a miss. I once read somewhere that almost all of Triple H's offense is based on irish whips and once you see it you can't unsee it. As time has gone on I've liked him less and less I think. For someone of his long career he hasn't had anywhere enough classics to be considered one of the greats in my opinion and has dropped the ball in enough big matches that I think his reputation as a main event level performer is questionable. He definitely requires a more talented opponent to take the lead to deliver a good match. Crazy that his in-ring peaked in late 99/early 2000. And I don't think I've found any babyface as difficult to root for as post return HBK. I love watching mid-90s cokehead HBK however.

Triple H is an odd one. You're absolutely right in that, in terms of matches, he's not one of the greats - for the most part, he's needed more talented opponents to carry him. He has had some good ones with opponents equal to or lesser in talent - his match with the Undertaker at WM17 was great, and that was back when Taker was still very hit-and-miss. But yeh - compare him to others of the time, and I think the best thing you can say for him from a match quality perspective is that he responds well to good opponents, as opposed to dragging them down, or needing to be completely carried. Essentially, he can raise his game to the level of his opponent's. I'm not sold on his ability to carry others, though - he certainly wasn't able to with Goldberg, although it could be argued that the road agents were as much at fault for breaking the pattern of Goldberg's usual matches and have him work outside his limited style. Overall, I'd say he was a solid-ish hand if you didn't want stinkers (barring 2003).

As a main-eventer, though, I would say he's definitely one: he has an evolved character with lots of history and audience investment, and a lot of presence. He's not-too-shabby a promo, as well (although I have to say that's something he's definitely improved at over the years - back in 2000, his performance was wooden as fuck, but from somewhere around the mid-2000s, he's been quite laid-back and relaxed, and it comes across well). And he's been a great, believable antagonist for main-event blue-eyes for years.

[BomberPat]

my problems with Triple H are threefold really; one, that's been touched on already, is that he was never The Guy, he was the man to wrestle The Guy, but because of his own career progression outside of the ring and the fact that everyone else fucked off, he's held up as being more important than he was - if you believe WWE, the Attitude Era was basically Rock, Austin and Triple H, when I'd argue Mick Foley was a much bigger part of making that period a success than Trips was, and that it's arguable that Undertaker, Kane, and to some extent even the non-Triple H members of DX were bigger deals at various stages of the game.

Secondly, he embodies the absolute worst of WWE melodrama. For all that you can trace a lot of bullshit back to Shawn Michaels' "I'm Sorry, I Love You", that at least felt somewhat natural, whereas every big Triple H match since then has felt like he's been trying to have a Shawn Michaels/Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels/Undertaker "classic match" or big iconic moment of his own. Even the ladder match he had with Kevin Nash (because he was feuding with CM Punk, obvs) had this moment where Nash tries to give him the "Too Sweet" hand gesture, and Triple H replies with a crotch chop, and you can just tell that in his head it was a really epic, meaningful moment.

Thirdly, he has no character consistency whatsoever. For a bloke who's supposedly a massive student of the game and lover of old NWA style wrestling, he always comes across as playing a part. Even without the cringeworthy "insider" references and "I'm not mad, don't put it in the newspaper that I was mad" promos like "talking to my friend Mark" that always come across as a deeply insecure bloke trying to convince you that he's actually really cool, and above doing this silly wrestling promo stuff really, he just flip flops characters endlessly. He could be the evil authority figure on RAW, then the heroic people's boss on NXT, then back to being evil for the PPV, but then oh hang on, there's a DX reunion on RAW the next week, so he's going to put on a leather jacket and act like a teenager, but don't worry, he's back in a shirt and tie playing heel the week after. 

[wandshogun09]

On 11/30/2022 at 3:45 PM, RIDDUM_N_STYLE said:

Monday I put on Fall Brawl 93 which had Sting, Davey Boy, Dustin Rhodes and Shockmaster v Sid, Vader and Harlem Heat in the double cage but also had a great Ric Flair v Rick Rude match on the undercard for the Big Gold Belt

I found Flair vs Rude really disappointing, overly long and dull myself. Their rematch at Halloween Havoc wasn’t much better either. Don’t know if it was just a case of two rights making a wrong or them just not being on the same page and the chemistry being off but I didn’t think they clicked at all. Found both matches incredibly boring. It’s pretty common knowledge that they never really got on, well Rude despised Flair anyway, so that can’t have helped.

I liked WrestleWar 91 though. War Games isn’t as good as the following year’s but still ace. You’ve got that Vader vs Hansen slobberknocker you mentioned plus Bobby Eaton vs Brad Armstrong, which was smooth as silk and was never gonna be anything less than excellent. And Luger vs Spivey is really fucking good, way better than it sounds on paper, one of Lex’s best matches, surely is Spivey’s best match and it shits all over the theory that Lex had to be carried by a Flair, Steamboat or whoever. 

[Vamp]

Wasn't that the match that mainly used a lot of kick, punch offence and then they decided that because that match was great, every match should be like that? 

 

[WeeAl]

13 hours ago, wandshogun09 said:

And Luger vs Spivey is really fucking good, way better than it sounds on paper, one of Lex’s best matches, surely is Spivey’s best match and it shits all over the theory that Lex had to be carried by a Flair, Steamboat or whoever. 

Absolutely. Luger was miles, miles better than he was given credit for. It's probably still only the odd place like here that you'll find that opinion too. The lack of love for him in the sheets spilled over into the fandom way more than it had any right to. 

I guess Lex is one of those types that when he was good, he was great. When he was bad, he was awful. 

On 11/30/2022 at 8:33 AM, Gay as FOOK said:

A belting TV title match and actually probably my favourite from their much maligned two year feud.

Yeah, easily their best match together alongside the Summer Slam '02 street fight. I've long held a soft spot for the Friday night spent watching this one. 

[The Gaffer]

Re: The Triple H discussion above, he's an odd one for me. I completely get all of those points, but they're all part of what makes him consistently entertaining for me. He's really...yeah...WWE. I think if you start thinking about him too much then he suffers massively, but I sort of just switch my brain off to enjoy his goofy ass career.

He's still by a considerable distance on my Mt. Rushmore in terms of involvement in matches and moments that I have a strong sense of nostalgia for. It's probably indicative of the kind of fan I am though, where ECW is about as fringe as I ever got. I've checked out ROH and Japan shows but I'd be lying if I ever said I lasted a full 2-3 hours without checking my phone and doing other stuff around the house. 

Big, dumb sports entertainment. That's Triple H. 

[Nick James]

This is one I watch quite regular. This is surely the best thing Bray Wyatt has been involved in? The match is pretty by the numbers, but the aftermath is pretty much pitch perfect. The disappointment in the fans groans when Bryan drops to his knees, then the gasp when he slips out of the Sister Abigail is brilliant. Then Bray and Bryan soaking in the reaction before the actual turn and attack, followed by Daniel Bryan scaling the cage and sitting atop, fans going nuts. Just perfection.

Even crazier to think he was concussed throughout. The crowd played a heavy part in how good this was, I couldn't imagine it playing out Infront of a flat crowd.

 

[The Gaffer]

It's worth watching the intro package alone, just for a compendium of Joker Sting moments. 

At the time I never really appreciated the character, and I think it's because this was the absolute height of that era most of us were just dying to see him do WrestleMania with 'Taker. So seeing him rip off another movie character on his relaxed Orlando schedule seemed goofy and lazy. 

It's an opinion that's obviously aged horribly. Sting going insane was fucking fantastic. 

[air_raid]

On 11/30/2022 at 8:33 AM, Gay as FOOK said:

Triple H/Michaels from the December 29th, 2003 Raw. 

One of my mates brings up a great point about this match - the crowd are so into it they buy a punch as a nearfall. That's great work.

On 11/30/2022 at 3:45 PM, RIDDUM_N_STYLE said:

Monday I put on Fall Brawl 93 which had Sting, Davey Boy, Dustin Rhodes and Shockmaster v Sid, Vader and Harlem Heat in the double cage but also had a great Ric Flair v Rick Rude match on the undercard for the Big Gold Belt

I dunno, I found that one a drag. I loved Flair, I loved Rude, I didn't think they had any chemistry against each other.

On 11/30/2022 at 5:53 PM, Carbomb said:

It was partly that, but, from what I remember at the time, the reason why the feud was so maligned was that it was just fucking interminable. They had great matches, but, after a point, those weren't enough to cut through the stench of sheer fucking boredom by about a year in. 

I don't think it was JUST that the feud went too long, the matches by and large went too long. The SummerSlam match was perfectly paced, that TV match from late 2003 was great, but usually they were self-indulgent faux "epics." Watching the Last Man Standing match at Rumble 2004 at the time, I got agitated watching it - true, I hate those matches anyway because the false finishes last a week, but it felt like it was going on forever, which might have been forgivable if the finish hadn't been utterly shit, but it was. Then the Cell match later in the year topped it, and was the first PPV main event I actually fell asleep during. I had never seen the 2002 "three stages of hell" title match at the time but a couple of years ago tried it out to see if it had been one of their good matches, or one of their overcooked wankathons, and it was the latter.