Wrestlers criticised as overrated to such an extent that they became underrated

[patiirc]

I never went crazy about Warrior's in ring work, and have certainly never seen that ever noted as 'overrated' either. 

He didnt need to be a technician in the ring, he didn't need to have a massive repertoire either. Power, paint, shake the ropes, tell a story and toodle pip. 

Everyone shits on the WCW stuff, wrestling had moved on, Warrior hadn't because he was still an attraction and a draw without having to have technical matches or indeed busting out springboard planchas or whatever else was starting to come to the fore as the star was fading. 

It always bothers me when looking back at this measured against more modern eyes, where everyone seems to have to know about 150 wristlock variations, yet are still doing sequences to finishers in most modern wrestling.

Difference now is that its more artistic rather than Clothesline, Gorilla Press, and and the rest of it. 

There wasnt a need for wrestlers to be amazing in ring then, the stories told were where the magic was, not about in ring ability and I fear that's where wrestling lost itself so much in the intervening years. 

 

 

 

 

[BomberPat]

Not having that. Warrior was bollocks by the standards of the time too - that's why he got all those Observer awards, that's why everyone who worked with him hated the experience, why his run on top was cut short. 

Even in the good matches - against Hogan, Rude or Savage and laid out by Pat Patterson, basically situations where it would be nigh on impossible to have a bad match - his timing is awful, he's out of position, he clocks his opponent on the side of the head because he rushes into his clothesline spot quicker than they're expecting, he's blown up two minutes in. It's not about not knowing how to do springboard planchas and somersaults - there were plenty of guys drawing big money in 1998 doing nothing of the sort - it's having an extremely limited repertoire and not even reliably being able to perform that. In 1998 it wasn't that he was an old fashioned worker who couldn't keep up, it was that he never could keep up, only now everyone saw through his smoke and mirrors too.

 

It's hard to call him overrated, because since his retirement his ability has probably been publicly dissected by the likes of the WWE Self-Destruction DVD more than anyone else and his weaknesses are widely known. But it's far more disingenuous to present him as someone left behind by changing tastes rather than as someone who had always been pushed beyond his ability, and therefore necessarily had a short shelf life as people were quicker to see through the bluster and the gimmicks than they ordinarily would be.

[patiirc]

2 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Not having that. Warrior was bollocks by the standards of the time too - that's why he got all those Observer awards, that's why everyone who worked with him hated the experience, why his run on top was cut short. 

Even in the good matches - against Hogan, Rude or Savage and laid out by Pat Patterson, basically situations where it would be nigh on impossible to have a bad match - his timing is awful, he's out of position, he clocks his opponent on the side of the head because he rushes into his clothesline spot quicker than they're expecting, he's blown up two minutes in. It's not about not knowing how to do springboard planchas and somersaults - there were plenty of guys drawing big money in 1998 doing nothing of the sort - it's having an extremely limited repertoire and not even reliably being able to perform that. In 1998 it wasn't that he was an old fashioned worker who couldn't keep up, it was that he never could keep up, only now everyone saw through his smoke and mirrors too.

 

It's hard to call him overrated, because since his retirement his ability has probably been publicly dissected by the likes of the WWE Self-Destruction DVD more than anyone else and his weaknesses are widely known. But it's far more disingenuous to present him as someone left behind by changing tastes rather than as someone who had always been pushed beyond his ability, and therefore necessarily had a short shelf life as people were quicker to see through the bluster and the gimmicks than they ordinarily would be.

He was  'just bollocks' according to da Meltz then? 

The Observer, I was not aware of at the time, we were lucky to get PWIs at that til the Internet took centre stage in the late 1990s. 

The Ultimate Warrior has had oodles of stuff post internet burying him in the ring and it's no wonder it's become the prevalent view. 

It's easier to rag on with today's eyes looking back rather than what was presented at the time.. Since then  Wrestlecrap dissection of the shite angles, Warrior's own mental view points post wrestling sing and the damage the trapdoor did to Davey Boy Smith, have all seen this heightened this.

You've then 3 matches in WCW which are routinely stated as being Warrior's fault for being shite, by the likes of Wrestlecrap because it is easier to do that than attack Hogan and the rest for power tripping, egotistical wankery, and consumate failure to get fireballs right etc. 

The Self Destruction of The Ultimate Warrior box set also has a lot to answer for too. 

No ones ever going to claim he is the best in ring worker of all time and he never needed to be. 

 

 

[The King Of Swing]

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

 repertoire

Have an upvote. 

[Carbomb]

Just for clarity, at no point in my particular post did I make any reference to flippy moves or technical wizardry when criticising Warrior, because I'm not a dribbler. As Pat #1 has pointed out, there were plenty of comparable wrestlers throughout Warrior's career who didn't do any of that either, and were still several orders better. 

Hell, a big chunk of this thread has been spent agreeing in detail with the praise for Hogan, mainly for the fact he did so much with so little!

Pulling out the "he didn't need to do Canadian Destroyers or SSPs" argument as a response to criticism of him being an incredibly limited worker belongs in the same box as calling all wrestling fans virgins who've never touched boob.

[BrodyGraham]

2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

 

Pulling out the "he didn't need to do Canadian Destroyers or SSPs" argument as a response to criticism of him being an incredibly limited worker belongs in the same box as calling all wrestling fans virgins who've never touched boob.

I take offence to that. I'm touching my boob right now.

[Devon Malcolm]

Dave Meltzer's clear agenda for and against certain wrestlers or styles of wrestling should not be a measuring point of quality or lack thereof. 

[air_raid]

16 hours ago, Maikeru said:

WON readers seemed to think so at least in '89 through '91(see post above). 

Did they? Or did they just think he was crap? There’s a difference.

[Maikeru]

1 hour ago, air_raid said:

Did they? Or did they just think he was crap? There’s a difference.

He won the ‘most overrated wrestler’ award three years running. Not sure if that was voted for by readers or if that was just Meltzer himself.

[gmoney]

Overrated in that sense just means over pushed, which I think is a different discussion.

[HarmonicGenerator]

Here's the Observer list of 'Most Overrated' award winners from 1980 onwards.

1980 Mr. Wrestling II

1981 Pedro Morales

1982, 1983 Bob Backlund

1984 Big John Studd

1985, 1986, Hulk Hogan

1987, 1988 Dusty Rhodes

1989, 1990, 1991 The Ultimate Warrior

1992 Erik Watts

1993 Sid Vicious

1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, Hulk Hogan

1999, 2000 Kevin Nash

2001 The Undertaker

2002, 2003, 2004, Triple H

2005 Jeff Jarrett

2006 Batista

2007 The Great Khali

2008 Vladimir Kozlov

2009 Triple H

2010 Kane

2011 Crimson

2012 Ryback

2013 Randy Orton

2014, 2015 Kane

2016 Roman Reigns

2017 Jinder Mahal

2018, 2019 Baron Corbin

2020 Bray Wyatt.

 

Of those, there are a few I think would qualify as "criticised as overrated to such an extent that they became underrated". Batista in 2006 might have not been at his best in-ring (especially since he vacated the title at the start of the year and disappeared for a while) but his star power is definitely undervalued - they'd love someone on his level right now. Roman Reigns in 2016 is another one - that's the year he had some cracking matches with AJ Styles for one thing. That's a good case of being called overrated so much he became underrated. Possibly even Hogan... I didn't watch masses of him in the 90s but a five-year unbroken stretch of being considered overrated, he must have done some decent stuff within that.

Edited September 15, 2021 by HarmonicGenerator

[JimmyAnderson]

That list suggests more overrated by companies than by fans. And by overrated it probably does account to overpushed. So they need to reevaluate what they mean by "overrated" because there's a big difference between who's overrated by fans and who's overpushed by companies. 

[DavidB6937]

Kevin Nash being on that list at all just means it's complete bullshit.

[Guest]

I’d love a company with that list as it’s roster 

[Carbomb]

Given Watts', Mahal's, and Corbin's presence on that list, it does read as companies overpushing them being the metric - I don't think I've ever heard or read any fan rating any of those three ever.