Gimmicks that missed out/were ahead of their time

[Carbomb]

Looking at the AEW Revolution thread, there was a mention that the Sting/Allin match was going to be a cinematic one, and it got me wondering: which gimmicks missed out from that particular development in wrestling, and, in fact, were there any other developments that certain gimmicks appeared too early for?

The one that came to mind with the original point was Goldust in his first phase: would he, as the twisted Hollywood film director, have been perfectly suited for the format? He's already held in high regard for his work, and the Goldust character was his most successful, but what extra dimensions might the cinematic format have added? Perhaps an Enter The Dragon-style Hall of Mirrors fight, or a thriller set in a dark Hollywood props warehouse, or maybe even a brawl on a post-apocalypse dystopia film set?

Obviously, the primary barrier was simply that wrestling fandom as a culture was probably just not ready for that yet, not to mention the production values might not have been there yet either. So, in this regard, was Goldust ahead of his time?

Are there any other gimmicks whom a later development in wrestling might have benefited, or at least imbued with an extra dimension?

[Kaz Hayashi]

I think that while cage fighting was still at a reasonable size in the mid-late 90’s, it hadn’t reached its general popularity and cross over appeal. I think had Shamrock & Severn been around in the early 00’s, with the likes of Angle on top, Lesnar and co, that crossover could have really spiked. The only issue with that s that they were of that time, so in order for it to have worked, they would’ve needed to be relevant in MMA in the early 00’s. They obviously were to an extent, but more as legends of the sport, rather than hot on the pulse.

Also, while I think it was still class at the time, I wonder how Bull Nakano, Hakushi/Shinzaki, Taka/Kaientai would’ve faired over the past 3-4 years in WWE. Given the larger exposure Japanese wrestling has had over the past decade with the likes of NJPW World, the international appeal within the likes of NXT, how popular Japanese based stables have been for western fans, and obviously for Bull, the rise and quality of the women’s division. 

[Jesse]

I think you're right with Goldust, especially since the WM12 match with Roddy Piper was, in many ways, the precursor to the modern 'cinematic wrestling' idea with pre-tapes mixed with live to create that match.

[tiger_rick]

If I never another "cinematic" match, or hear the phrase, again, it will be more than welcome. Mind you, if they'd have become a thing in 1996, there's a good chance I'd have saved about three million hours of my life watching this nonsense!

[BomberPat]

17 minutes ago, Kaz Hayashi said:

I think that while cage fighting was still at a reasonable size in the mid-late 90’s, it hadn’t reached its general popularity and cross over appeal. I think had Shamrock & Severn been around in the early 00’s, with the likes of Angle on top, Lesnar and co, that crossover could have really spiked. 

Also, while I think it was still class at the time, I wonder how Bull Nakano, Hakushi/Shinzaki, Taka/Kaientai would’ve faired over the past 3-4 years in WWE. Given the larger exposure Japanese wrestling has had over the past decade with the likes of NJPW World, the international appeal within the likes of NXT, how popular Japanese based stables have been for western fans, and obviously for Bull, the rise and quality of the women’s division. 

I think both are those were opportunities that could have been huge at the time, if the WWF weren't stuck on (as they have been fairly consistently since) their way being the only way to present wrestling. 

When Shamrock signed with the WWF, I believe he had been on tap to main event the Tokyo Dome in what probably would have been the highest earning NJPW event ever. UFC wasn't the mainstream big business it is now, but Shamrock came in to the WWF at the height of the controversy around "human cockfighting" and politicians trying to get it banned - it should have been the easiest thing in the world to capitalise on, as the WWF increasingly started positioning themselves as something edgy and dangerous. 

The reason guys like Shamrock were getting over big in Japan is that, admittedly, "shoot style" and MMA had more of a foothold in the wrestling culture there, but part of the larger companies adapting to the rise of MMA was in reeducating their audience as to how wrestling works, particularly around submissions, and a submission being as valid a finish as a pinfall (which has the added bonus of wrestlers not having to rely on taking big bumps all the time). 

The WWF could have followed that lead or, better yet, booked Shamrock as a master of his discipline that the WWF wrestlers were unprepared for. He should have wrestled completely differently to anyone else in the company, not been throwing dropkicks and hurricanranas. But he had to learn WWF style, and very quickly became another face in the crowd. If he'd been booked as this MMA killing machine, he could have been such a fascinating character in that environment, and a perfect foil for Steve Austin - hell, they had Mike Tyson knocking about, imagine them even teasing that match?

That Dan Severn vs. Ken Shamrock only happened one-on-one in the WWF once, as a throwaway two minute RAW match, is insane. There was money on the table there, if they knew what they had.

Severn was hit worse than Shamrock, because he didn't have a kind of charisma the WWF recognised. He could have been booked as an absolute killer, but never was. They had real opportunities with him still taking independent bookings, too - in his book, he talks about pitching angles where Owen Hart would interfere in his matches on indie shows and cost him the NWA Title.

The playground rumour after Angle started doing the Ankle Lock was that Shamrock was on his way back, and in a lot of ways it's surprising they never even tried to make it happen. 

 

As for Japanese talent, I think the WWF dropped the ball massively. Whether with Joshi wrestlers in the women's division, or just relying more heavily on the Michinoku Pro lads, it should have been their counterpoint to WCW having the Cruiserweight division and having access to a lot of luchadores.

But it's another "WWF knows best" problem - it's only recently, and largely a result of Daniel Bryan's influence, that they've started to deviate from the old fashioned "WWE Style" and allow more outside influence. What's the point in recruiting talent from diverse styles, backgrounds and disciplines, if all you're going to do with them is force square pegs into round holes and make them abandon everything that makes them unique?

 

EDIT: as for cinematic matches, the only appropriate answer would be Hulk Hogan having a match in the actual Dungeon of Doom. And maybe some Undertaker bollocks, I guess.

Edited February 8, 2021 by BomberPat

[HarmonicGenerator]

19 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

The playground rumour after Angle started doing the Ankle Lock was that Shamrock was on his way back, and in a lot of ways it's surprising they never even tried to make it happen. 

I hadn't thought about it for years, but I vividly remember being told this rumour. I only knew Shamrock from the first SmackDown game, but I knew he did the anklelock (or the 'Shamrock Anklelock' as the game called it) so fully believed he was on his way back to fight Kurt.

The same person told me that Shamrock was the only one in the WWF who would hit his opponents 'for real'. Him and the Undertaker. I believed this too.

[The King Of Swing]

21 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

If I never another "cinematic" match, or hear the phrase, again, it will be more than welcome. Mind you, if they'd have become a thing in 1996, there's a good chance I'd have saved about three million hours of my life watching this nonsense!

Honestly I thought they were fine during the early days of the pandemic since everything was on hold or up in the air. 

They served their purpose though, so I'd rather not see anymore in a major promotion. 

[BomberPat]

3 minutes ago, HarmonicGenerator said:

I hadn't thought about it for years, but I vividly remember being told this rumour. I only knew Shamrock from the first SmackDown game, but I knew he did the anklelock (or the 'Shamrock Anklelock' as the game called it) so fully believed he was on his way back to fight Kurt.

The same person told me that Shamrock was the only one in the WWF who would hit his opponents 'for real'. Him and the Undertaker. I believed this too.

There were two or three kids at school that always had "insider" info. Some of it obviously came from internet gossip sites, while one of them figured out before the rest of us that RAW aired on Monday in the US and Friday here, so he could just look up the results and then comfortably "predict" what would happen every week. The other was a proper "my uncle works for Nintendo" type, and would pretend to have actual inside sources and would come up with all sorts of bullshit examples of things that were definitely happening. I vividly remember him insisting that the 2001 Royal Rumble was going to come down to Bradshaw and Faarooq, with one of them convincing the other that they would both eliminate themselves at the same time, and then saving himself at the last minute.

All of those kids - even the one who knew what was "going to happen" on RAW because he was reading the results - would insist that Ken Shamrock was coming back every other week. Again, I think most of it came down to the Smackdown game, but Shamrock just seemed to be every kid's favourite, and no one could understand why he had just disappeared. All those rumours went into overtime when Angle started doing the Anklelock.

I still see echoes of it sometimes - a wrestler starts doing someone else's finish, and people start predicting that it's going to lead to that person debuting/coming back for a feud over it. For something that's been speculated about so many times, the closest I can think to it ever actually having happened is that Eddie Guerrero feuded with RVD when he came back to the WWF. Usually, someone else starting to use your finish is a sure sign that you're persona non grata, not that you're being brought back.

[Jazzy G]

Is the Lawler/Funk empty arena match from Memphis not an early example of a cinematic match? That's a heck of a contest. 

[Devon Malcolm]

From what I've seen, the problem with these recent 'cinematic' matches is that they're fucking terrible wrestling and even worse cinema.

[BomberPat]

5 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

From what I've seen, the problem with these recent 'cinematic' matches is that they're fucking terrible wrestling and even worse cinema.

This is the thing. Empty Arena Matches - Funk/Lawler in particular - can be brilliant, and generally work because they're still structurally a wrestling match.

Where nonsense like the most recent Money In The Bank fall apart is because they're just completely disjointed. It's bad comedy, bad cinema, and bad wrestling. 

Grumpy old Alan Moore once said that one of the flaws of too many comic books was that people are writing them in the hope that they get adapted into movies, so the best they can hope to be is movies that don't move. It precludes them from being the best in their own field, by aiming to be a mediocre version of another. Cinematic matches are too often the same - abandon the structure of wrestling, and all you're doing is making a bad movie, with performers who aren't actors, and crew that don't make movies.

A few wrestling types - like "Angry Wrestling Vet" on Facebook - were raving after last year's Wrestlemania that cinematic matches could be the future of the business, and how something like the Graveyard Match would be a great hook for casual fans. Two people I know who don't really watch wrestling, but will check out bits of Wrestlemania, both told me they didn't see the point of the Graveyard Match because it just felt like watching a bad action movie fight sequence - and there's plenty of bad action movies they could watch if that's what they wanted.

[quote the raven]

Bourne again, Doink in ECW

He played a gimmick that more or less he was driven mad by having to play doink 

https://ringthedamnbell.wordpress.com/2015/04/30/great-ideas-that-didnt-last-borne-again/

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by quote the raven

[Carbomb]

2 hours ago, Kaz Hayashi said:

I think that while cage fighting was still at a reasonable size in the mid-late 90’s, it hadn’t reached its general popularity and cross over appeal. I think had Shamrock & Severn been around in the early 00’s, with the likes of Angle on top, Lesnar and co, that crossover could have really spiked. The only issue with that s that they were of that time, so in order for it to have worked, they would’ve needed to be relevant in MMA in the early 00’s. They obviously were to an extent, but more as legends of the sport, rather than hot on the pulse.

What's very telling about this post and subsequent replies is that there's one particular person who doesn't occur to anyone when discussing MMA gimmicks: Taz.

When you look at his style, his look, his presentation, and the way he was booked (including that match against the recently-late Paul Varelans), it was clear he was a prototype MMA gimmick of sorts, who probably wouldn't have looked out of place in RINGS or UWFi. 

In this regard, he's possibly an even more relevant example of someone whose gimmick was too early for the time.

[BomberPat]

Just now, Carbomb said:

What's very telling about this post and subsequent replies is that there's one particular person who doesn't occur to anyone when discussing MMA gimmicks: Taz.

When you look at his style, his look, his presentation, and the way he was booked (including that match against the recently-late Paul Varelans), it was clear he was a prototype MMA gimmick of sorts, who probably wouldn't have looked out of place in RINGS or UWFi. 

In this regard, he's possibly an even more relevant example of someone whose gimmick was too early for the time.

He absolutely was, and would have been a decent framework for how Shamrock or Severn should have been booked in the WWF. He was given the aura of being a legitimate shooter, despite having not had any shoot style or MMA experience, and that same audience having seen him as The Tazmaniac. Meanwhile, the WWF's attempt to mimic UFC/No Holds Barred Fighting (pre-Shamrock) was repackaging Papa Shango as Kama, but making zero attempt to have him actually wrestle like an MMA guy.

It's a masterclass in getting someone over by making them consistently believable in the role, and in re-educating an audience as to what to expect from wrestling - before Taz in ECW, and later Shamrock in the WWF, wrestlers in the WWF didn't tap out. 

[Your Fight Site]

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

I still see echoes of it sometimes - a wrestler starts doing someone else's finish, and people start predicting that it's going to lead to that person debuting/coming back for a feud over it.

Same with commentary. JR started calling Shelton Benjamin’s corner splash the “Stinger Splash” in the mid-2000s, so every news site immediately jumped on it as WWE priming audiences for an imminent Sting début.