Guy Bifkin Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 I didn't have a problem with the stoppage at the time but this angle pretty clearly shows Robbie give the thumbs up -Â Not a great event despite the stacked card. The two title fights suffered from being completely one sided, with Smith and Woodley spending most of the five rounds in the fetal position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 In Herb's defence it was an ever so fleeting attempt at a thumbs up. Blink and you miss it, even from that angle. You know what's better than a thumbs up? keeping your arm in a position where it's obvious you're trying to fight out of the position. Usually it's easy to shit all over refs in MMA, but that was a good stoppage considering the angle Herb had, the split second he has to react to it in real time, and the signals Lawler was sending. Even the commentators at the time thought he was out I think. It's unfortunate, but it's a lesson to fighters that if you look like you've went limp, the fight is gonna get stopped. Besides, Herb saved Lawlers dome from becoming one of those pumpkins or watermelons up there, he should be thanking him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted March 4, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2019 I get the impression the thumbs-up isn't really taken seriously by refs. The second Faber/Barao fight, the exact same thing happened - Barao was putting a beating on Faber from (IIRC) a rear mount position, Faber was sort of defending but also giving a thumbs-up without returning any offence, the ref stopped it, and Faber's reaction was pretty similar to Lawler's. EDIT: Actually, not exact same - Faber's thumbs-up was a lot more clearly visible too, and he held it for several seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted March 4, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2019 I found it interesting Rogan and Cruz had differing opinions on how effective that hold is. It goes to show it's not straight forward. To Herb's credit, he handled the Jones illegal knee perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators neil Posted March 4, 2019 Moderators Share Posted March 4, 2019 The whole "arms not under the chin" argument is rubbish. It's harder to get the choke but still possible depending on arm angle etc. Also there is the jaw/neck aspect to the submission as well which is extremely painful - see Connor/Khabib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted March 4, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted March 4, 2019 Anik/Goddard going at it about Usman standup (need to expand it to see the responses). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzExile Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 I thought it was a good stoppage by Herb. I still can't really see any sort of reaction from Lawler even after looking at it multiple times from multiple angles that the referee doesn't have.  Wouldn't want the guy to be choked to death now, would we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 5, 2019 Author Paid Members Share Posted March 5, 2019 Brett Okamoto did a great 30 minute sit down interview with Ben Askren for ESPN. It was done before 235 but sod it, I’m leaving it here anyway;  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weevil Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 The problem for me, and this seems to be common, is the arm check was perfunctory. He lifts the arm and immediately goes to stop the fight without looking to see how Lawlor reacts. If Herb was really checking the arm he would have seen the thumbs up. It would only have taken a second to do so, which i don't think would put Lawlor at unreasonable risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted March 5, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted March 5, 2019 it was a tough spot, because seeing that arm go limp would have been enough for many refs to step in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 13 minutes ago, weevil said: The problem for me, and this seems to be common, is the arm check was perfunctory. He lifts the arm and immediately goes to stop the fight without looking to see how Lawlor reacts. If Herb was really checking the arm he would have seen the thumbs up. It would only have taken a second to do so, which i don't think would put Lawlor at unreasonable risk. Here's the thing, instead of offering vague thumbs ups or any of that shite, if you're awake why not lift your limp arm up and actually attempt to fight out of the position? Imagine if Askren had been dropped on his dome and while Lawler was on top of him crashing fists and elbows down he done absolutely nothing to combat the position, but just covered up and gave a vague thumbs up? We've seen it many times, a fighter will cover up for a few seconds and the fight gets stopped even though they aren't actually taking any serious damage. The key aspect here is that you have to show the referee that you're not only awake, but that you have enough about you to actively fight the position. If Lawler had kept his right arm on Askren's head and shoulder, looking to pull back on his chin, throw a few token punches or whatever then it wouldn't have been an issue. If you go from that position to dropping your arm and leaving it laying on the mat you're asking for trouble. The stoppage was entirely on Lawler, not Herb. EDIT: And another thing, this is yet another case of Dana Bawheid driving the narrative yet again. He's being interviewed, calling it a bad stoppage, saying it was ridiculous and so on, which in turn influences how a lot of the fans react. I hope they do run it back, and as much as I love Lawler I hope this time Askren doesn't make a mistake with his initial takedown attempt, and goes on to absolutely dominate Lawler. Just to see him smiling in the cage, and Dana absolutely raging. Does anyone think White would be as keen to "run it back" if it was Askren who lost in a dubious ref call? Not a fucking chance. He'd be giving it the whole "well, this is what happens when you don't actively look to defend, it's a tough break but it is what it is" and all that shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chunk Posted March 5, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted March 5, 2019 Anyone think Askren held the choke on a bit long? Probably just a product of the confusing situation but he definitely seemed to clock Herb calling the fight off and held it on a bit longer than he needed to. No big deal but just something I spotted. Might be something being discussed a bit more if it weren't for the decision to call the fight off being more relevant. https://twitter.com/thuhGooch/status/1102263779813937153 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted March 5, 2019 Share Posted March 5, 2019 Nah, I don't think so. He seemed to be concentrating on Herb checking Lawler and seemed to be thinking that he was on the cusp of winning the fight, it was literally a second before he looked at Herb and released the hold. He's consistently said he likes and respects Lawler, so I don't see any reason why he'd hold on longer than he had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted March 5, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted March 5, 2019 no be fucked, they wouldn't be running it back if Lalwer was in Askrens position, it would be the 'when you get to the UFC you realise quickly its a different ball game' speech. Im starting to think Asren's UFC debut might be on the best in the companies history. It worked out so perfectly and complimented everything Askren is about in and outside of the cage. If Askren had gone in and dominated Lawler for 3 rounds we would have got the 'Lawler isnt what he was' thing, instead Askren took Lawlers best, came back, choked Lawler out sort of and created the biggest talking point of the show and further wound up and pissed off his boss who already hates his guts. Lawler was sent in there basically as Dana White's hitman. Askren called for many fights prior to UFC 235 but wound up fighting a guy he didnt want to fight. They clearly didnt want to give Askren what he wanted to stick it to him but at the same time give him a highlighted spot against a guy they hoped would smash him, it backfired beautifully. "Dana, is that the best you got?" Fucking perfect. Why would anyone watch the WWE when MMA does pro wrestling a 100 times better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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