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13 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

For them it's about borders and our own laws.

That's 100% the reasoning behind my Dad voting leave, and almost everyone else I know. Not wanting to be controlled by Europe he said, and the examples he gave me where we were mostly affected were "well look at them telling us our bananas are too straight" and suchlike.

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People are the worst. Particularly old people.

Our democracy is garbage anyway so I'd rather just have what I want and fuck those guys.

Edited by Chest Rockwell

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1 minute ago, PunkStep said:

That's 100% the reasoning behind my Dad voting leave, and almost everyone else I know. Not wanting to be controlled by Europe he said, and the examples he gave me where we were mostly affected were "well look at them telling us our bananas are too straight" and suchlike.

Yep. I tend to go all James O’Brien and ask which laws in particular are you looking forward to getting back and whatnot, but that’s what we are dealing with. Facts don’t matter, opinions do and those opinions won’t change. I think that in 5 years if we are out of the EU and queuing for bread, it will be because we left it too long to leave. 

Its the same with “They’re punishing us” spiel. It’s as if a union of nations who don’t do anything for the member states are looking out for the member states who they simultaneously do nothing for

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If I am having a particularly difficult shit, not often due to my squatty potty which can be ordered from most health websites near you; I often amuse myself by looking at the posts in groups such as ‘Brexit -Leave means leave’ 

The best post I saw today was a picture of a load of soldiers holding up the white cliffs of dover as a young couple walked out green and vibrant land. The caption you ask? ‘They did not ruin your future, the allowed you to have one’ 

Fucking beautiful. 

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I'm looking forward to being free of Commission Regulation (EC) No. 2257/94. Then our greengrocers will be free to sell bananas that are broken, unfit for human consumption, rotting, dirty, infested by pests, bruised and that smell and taste funny. Oh, and they can be curved too!

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11 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

Yep. I tend to go all James O’Brien and ask which laws in particular are you looking forward to getting back and whatnot, but that’s what we are dealing with. Facts don’t matter, opinions do and those opinions won’t change. I think that in 5 years if we are out of the EU and queuing for bread, it will be because we left it too long to leave. 

The problem is we're dealing with a pernicious line of reasoning where the motivation is opinion and emotion, and the defence is cherry-picked facts or outright lies. If it was a factual motivation, it'd be easy to argue against. If it was purely emotional, it would be slightly more difficult, but still feasible, simply by appealing to people's sense of solidarity and a recognition of the benefits of that unity. But when they're banging on about "Empire 2.0" and "taking back control" (an illusion anyway if they're just going to let the same old thing keep happening under the rule of the same old fucking people), and then, when they're called out on it, defending their position by referring to either Daily Mail bullshit or the few instances where their grievances were closer to the truth, it becomes a trickier proposition.

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9 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

The problem is we're dealing with a pernicious line of reasoning where the motivation is opinion and emotion, and the defence is cherry-picked facts or outright lies. If it was a factual motivation, it'd be easy to argue against. If it was purely emotional, it would be slightly more difficult, but still feasible, simply by appealing to people's sense of solidarity and a recognition of the benefits of that unity. But when they're banging on about "Empire 2.0" and "taking back control" (an illusion anyway if they're just going to let the same old thing keep happening under the rule of the same old fucking people), and then, when they're called out on it, defending their position by referring to either Daily Mail bullshit or the few instances where their grievances were closer to the truth, it becomes a trickier proposition.

Even if they're completely wrong about every aspect of it, has there ever been an instance you can think of where "arguing against" someone's point of view wins them over? That tactic rarely works, if at all. 

All that happens is that they get pissed off and eventually storm off, and you get the satisfaction of knowing you "won" the debate, which matters not a jot in the grand scheme of things.

Edited by David

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I think your lens on that is slightly distorted if you debate in real life the way you do online. I've had my mind changed, or at least gone away with something to think about many a time.

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2 minutes ago, David said:

Even if they're completely wrong about every aspect of it, has there ever been an instance you can think of where "arguing against" someone's point of view wins them over? That tactic rarely works, if at all. 

All that happens is that they get pissed off and eventually storm off, and you get the satisfaction of knowing you "won" the debate, which matters not a jot in the grand scheme of things.

If they argue like you do, Dave, I'm not surprised that's your experience of how arguments end.

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3 minutes ago, David said:

Even if they're completely wrong about every aspect of it, has there ever been an instance you can think of where "arguing against" someone's point of view wins them over? That tactic rarely works, if at all. 

All that happens is that they get pissed off and eventually storm off, and you get the satisfaction of knowing you "won" the debate, which matters not a jot in the grand scheme of things.

Which is how I suppose we ended up where we are. A lot of people voted Brexit just because they were sick of elites telling them they're wrong and just not listening to them. Disaffected working class areas were "No platformed" by the political classes and many voted out in protest. What happens now if there were to be another vote or somesuch? Is that just doubling down on their disenchantment and feelings of irrelevancy?

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19 hours ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

Who will "swell the numbers" and cause this civil war exactly - this lot?

Dn2TE9pXoAAw0an.jpg

 

Edit - what's more boring than Brexit chat? Tony Blair chat.

Whenever I see this picture, I always think of Dylan Thomas 

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day; 
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

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1 minute ago, PowerButchi said:

Which is how I suppose we ended up where we are. A lot of people voted Brexit just because they were sick of elites telling them they're wrong and just not listening to them. Disaffected working class areas were "No platformed" by the political classes and many voted out in protest. What happens now if there were to be another vote or somesuch? Is that just doubling down on their disenchantment and feelings of irrelevancy?

Yes, but what "elites"? What "platform"? There's always been a big nasty government telling the working man how to behave. Let's think about the 1980s when the working class voted for Thatcher in large numbers. Unfortunate, but a fact. A feeling of irrelevancy isn't unique to the working class. It's why people vote in the first place: "Oi, I want this, mister Proime Minister!" Usually, it's something fairly trivial, like lower taxes, because that's all people tend to want - the ability to make money and not have their stupid prejudices challenged by The Man. What's interesting about the Brexit is that we've heard a howl from people who don't normally howl. They don't like immigrants, basically for the perceived idea that Polish people are stealing all the bog scrubbing jobs. That's what I've gathered. Before Tony Blair, the left wing working class had a recognisable cause. Now, let's just lash out in fury because we have no one, apart from that idiot Nigel Farage, "speaking" for "us". It's a sad state of affairs

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13 minutes ago, PowerButchi said:

Which is how I suppose we ended up where we are. A lot of people voted Brexit just because they were sick of elites telling them they're wrong and just not listening to them. Disaffected working class areas were "No platformed" by the political classes and many voted out in protest. What happens now if there were to be another vote or somesuch? Is that just doubling down on their disenchantment and feelings of irrelevancy?

I honestly believe that if there was another vote it would go the same way, perhaps even moreso. The natural reaction when someone is told that they're wrong and it's at least hinted at that they were duped, and were stupid to believe what they did is to clam up and double down, as you say.

For example;

5 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said:

Usually, it's something fairly trivial, like lower taxes, because that's all people tend to want - the ability to make money and not have their stupid prejudices challenged by The Man. What's interesting about the Brexit is that we've heard a howl from people who don't normally howl. They don't like immigrants, basically for the perceived idea that Polish people are stealing all the bog scrubbing jobs. That's what I've gathered. Before Tony Blair, the left wing working class had a recognisable cause. Now, let's just lash out in fury because we have no one, apart from that idiot Nigel Farage, "speaking" for "us". It's a sad state of affairs

I'm sure that anyone who voted to leave is going to read and hear things similar to this and think "Gosh, this guy who's essentially calling me a fucking moron is right! I'm gonna change my ways! Thanks, man!"

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1 minute ago, Brewster McCloud said:

Yes, but what "elites"? What "platform"? There's always been a big nasty government telling the working man how to behave. Let's think about the 1980s when the working class voted for Thatcher in large numbers. Unfortunate, but a fact. A feeling of irrelevancy isn't unique to the working class. It's why people vote in the first place: "Oi, I want this, mister Proime Minister!" Usually, it's something fairly trivial, like lower taxes, because that's all people tend to want - the ability to make money and not have their stupid prejudices challenged by The Man. What's interesting about the Brexit is that we've heard a howl from people who don't normally howl. They don't like immigrants, basically for the perceived idea that Polish people are stealing all the bog scrubbing jobs. That's what I've gathered. Before Tony Blair, the left wing working class had a recognisable cause. Now, let's just lash out in fury because we have no one, apart from that idiot Nigel Farage, "speaking" for "us". It's a sad state of affairs

Just look at the voter turnouts. General election turnouts have been low for quite some time now. Surely that must be down somewhat to feelings of ennui. The referendum turnout was higher than any GE since 1997. Why? Is it the binary question meaning there's more chance of your vote actually mattering? You gothe pubs around my end, a lot of people dont vote as "They're all the same. Innit". Every Tory is a wanker, every Labour politician has been a wanker since Blair. That's the feedback you get there. Several people I know voted out to put mud in the eye of every politician wwho they feel hasn't listened to them since, well, since the mines tbh. That's surely quite clear. It's they whole "They're both two cheeks of the same arse" argument.

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