Undefeated Steak Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Yeah they could have definitely been more successful than they were. Their first angle was great and really stood out during a creative down period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted May 17, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted May 17, 2014 The biggest let-down of recent years was chopping off Ryback's bollocks in that HIAC match with Punk. Who knows what Ryback might have been had they pulled the trigger on him, instead of pulling the rug from under him. He might well have flopped anyway, in which case he would be treading water in the mid-card today, but he might have been something special, for a time at least. I just view it as a 'free bet' option that they decided not to bother playing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin' Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Daniel Bryan wasn't on Batista's level a year ago. The whole point of wrestling is to build people up as attractions. So all this "they weren't on the level" stuff is just no true. Nobody will be on the level if you dont want them to be. WWF's popularity dropped considerably in 2001, but they drew their biggest buyrate for a B show ever when they pitted WCW vs the WWF. People cared, WWF squashed it and the business suffered for it. They let ego get in the way of a storyline that could have carried them for another 18 months. You obviously can't build a group whose who point is to takeover in the same way you can build a regular wrestler. As soon as the Invasion angle started, the Alliance had to be pushed straight into a feud with the WWF, so there was no possible way of increasing their status before the feud started. You couldn't debut DDP, Booker T, Van Dam etc. and then 6 months down the line when they've been booked strongly, say "oh, by the way, we plan to put the WWF out of business". It doesn't work that way. Besides, why would they even want to push those guys when they had better talent on the roster anyway? Austin, The Rock, Kane, Jericho, Big Show, The Undertaker, Angle and Triple H were all better and had made more than anyone in the Alliance, possibly excusing DDP, so what sense is there in making these wrestlers who nobody cared about seem important and equal to the wrestlers who WWF fans did care about? There was more money in sticking with those proven WWF wrestlers and adding DDP to the mix, rather than pursuing a WWF vs. Alliance angle which was always doomed to failure because it lacked stars. You can't stretch a feud out for 18 months when there is such a massive disparity between the two sides. Had Hogan, Sting, Goldberg, Nash, Flair, Hall, Steiner etc. been involved, that could have easily been stretched out for such a long time but the talent that were available weren't popular enough, didn't make enough money and weren't big enough stars in WCW to warrant being booked strongly. It could only ever be a 6 month feud or whatever it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted May 17, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted May 17, 2014 Mike Awesome and Lance Storm showed up on Raw and the people reacted like a star came out. You dont seem to be getting that 90% of wrestling fans cant remember what happened the previous week, let alone when Mike Awesome was losing matches to Shaggy 2 Dope on Nitro. People want to be entertained and lost in it. And the idea of a group of invaders from WCW was a huge deal to the fan base in 2001. Again, it wasn't the same fan base you have today, where we all understand everything will be shit eventually and they will find a way to fuck it up. The lead up to the Invasion PPV was a super hot period where the fans were begging for Stone Cold Steve Austin to turn back to his former self to help the failing WWF squad. It was a golden period and they fucked it up.  When the ECW lot turned on Jericho and Kane and Heyman jumped in the ring, that was a super hot angle. And the ECW guys were comprised of WWF midcarders who never won. Wrestling is all about how you present people. It doesn't take two minutes to present someone as a threat. But the WCW guys weren't allowed to get any heat on the WWF wrestlers.  Had Hogan, Sting, Goldberg, Nash, Flair, Hall, Steiner etc. been involved, that could have easily been stretched out for such a long time  Hogan was available. Scott Hall wasn't under contract. Flair came in a few months after the Invasion PPV. Bischoff was available. Dusty Rhodes was available. Sting was available. Steiner was around if you really needed him in. Booker T was there, DDP was there. Rey Mysterio was around. Benoit and Jericho could have defected to the WCW side. It was only Goldberg who was under lock and key for the long term. There's this big fallacy that all the WCW wrestlers were under contract for years. Aside from Goldberg, most of the big names either had their contracts running out (thus meaning they could have bought them out dirt cheap) or they were already out of contract. It was only Goldberg locked down. If WWF wanted them, they could have had them. Even Goldberg. The WWF paid almost $100 million for that shite XFL league. A few million to have Steve Austin vs Goldberg wouldn't have been anything to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted May 17, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted May 17, 2014 Austin, The Rock, Kane, Jericho, Big Show, The Undertaker, Angle and Triple H were all better and had made more than anyone in the Alliance, possibly excusing DDP, so what sense is there in making these wrestlers who nobody cared about seem important and equal to the wrestlers who WWF fans did care about? Â No. Ian's already pointed out how wrong this is. Â WWF's popularity dropped considerably in 2001, but they drew their biggest buyrate for a B show ever when they pitted WCW vs the WWF. People cared, WWF squashed it and the business suffered for it. Â Â People didn't buy that PPV thinking "Well, hopefully Hogan and Goldberg show up," they bought it because there WAS INTEREST in the announced card, and in the incumbent WWF roster vs The Alliance. People didn't know if Lance Storm or Booker T or Rob Van Dam or Billy Kidman or anyone were better than their counterparts on the same points of the card in the WWF because by and large, they hadn't wrestled them. The "sense" as you put it in making those wrestlers seem important and equal is clear as fucking day - to put on matches where there is intrigue as to who will win, so people will pay money to see them?? As evidenced by Austin and Hunter working Undertaker and Kane yet again over the Backlash/Judgment Day period, everyone had wrestled everyone over the course of the previous 18 months and things had started to become a little stale and in need of something fresh, and the injection of new talent could have provided that shot in the arm, and DID for one night. It's simple rasslin' promotion - find something the people have never seen before, make them want to see it, then make them pay to see it. Â There were precedents for engaging "invasion" storylines where large factions trade wins with or even dominate the "home" roster only to eventually receive their comeuppance, in WCW vs The nWo and the storyline that inspired Bischoff, New Japan vs The UWFI. The WWF started the storyline effectively at Invasion where by sharing of victories down the card the two rosters seemed quite evenly matched. Then come SummerSlam, the WWF absolutely twatted the Alliance for the Intercontinental, Tag Team and World Heavyweight titles, with only Steve Austin (a WWF guy in truth anyway) retaining a major title for them and looking LUCKY to do so. Just like that, the WWF had put the outsiders in their place, and they were fucked for expecting the public to pay to see Booker T or DDP again in the near future. Just pissing money away. As if to underscore the dominance, at the very next PPV Booker couldn't even get the belt back from Rock with Shane McMahon legally in the match helping him. The message was clear from The Alliance : "If we didn't have Stone Cold, we'd be fucked." Â DDP getting pinned by Sara didn't help either. Senseless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members unfitfinlay Posted May 17, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted May 17, 2014 There were precedents for engaging "invasion" storylines were large factions trade wins with or even dominate the "home" roster only to eventually receive their comeuppance, in WCW vs The nWo and the storyline that inspired Bischoff, New Japan vs The UWFI. The WWF started the storyline effectively at Invasion where by sharing of victories down the card the two rosters seemed quite evenly matched. Then come SummerSlam, the WWF absolutely twatted the Alliance for the Intercontinental, Tag Team and World Heavyweight titles, with only Steve Austin (a WWF guy in truth anyway) retaining a major title for them and looking LUCKY to do so. Just like that, the WWF had put the outsiders in their place, and they were fucked for expecting the public to pay to see Booker T or DDP again in the near future. Just pissing money away. As if to underscore the dominance, at the very next PPV Booker couldn't even get the belt back from Rock with Shane McMahon legally in the match helping him. The message was clear from The Alliance : "If we didn't have Stone Cold, we'd be fucked."Â DDP getting pinned by Sara didn't help either. Senseless. Â This is spot on. The WCW guys didn't get over because the WWF didn't book them to get over. The fact that Booker, the WCW World Champion who SHOULD'VE been protected was presented as a delusional Rock rip off merchant really says it all. How on earth were people expected to buy into him as a top level guy with that gimmick? Â If they'd kept the WCW guys strong, it would've given them a lot more bargaining power with the WCW big names who could've been gradually phased in when required and kept the storyline fresh. It might've been nice to have Steiner or Goldberg from the start but wouldn't it have been far more dramatic if they'd come in when the WWF was on the ropes already? The Rock winning the decisive match in, for example, a competitive People's Champ vs People's Champ feud with DDP, only to turn around and get speared by Goldberg or Suplexed by Steiner or Power Bombed by Nash would've been amazing. They absolutely could've kept it going for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphinx Posted May 17, 2014 Share Posted May 17, 2014 Mike Awesome and Lance Storm showed up on Raw and the people reacted like a star came out. You dont seem to be getting that 90% of wrestling fans cant remember what happened the previous week, let alone when Mike Awesome was losing matches to Shaggy 2 Dope on Nitro. People want to be entertained and lost in it. And the idea of a group of invaders from WCW was a huge deal to the fan base in 2001. Again, it wasn't the same fan base you have today, where we all understand everything will be shit eventually and they will find a way to fuck it up. The lead up to the Invasion PPV was a super hot period where the fans were begging for Stone Cold Steve Austin to turn back to his former self to help the failing WWF squad. It was a golden period and they fucked it up. When the ECW lot turned on Jericho and Kane and Heyman jumped in the ring, that was a super hot angle. And the ECW guys were comprised of WWF midcarders who never won. Wrestling is all about how you present people. It doesn't take two minutes to present someone as a threat. But the WCW guys weren't allowed to get any heat on the WWF wrestlers.  Had Hogan, Sting, Goldberg, Nash, Flair, Hall, Steiner etc. been involved, that could have easily been stretched out for such a long time  Hogan was available. Scott Hall wasn't under contract. Flair came in a few months after the Invasion PPV. Bischoff was available. Dusty Rhodes was available. Sting was available. Steiner was around if you really needed him in. Booker T was there, DDP was there. Rey Mysterio was around. Benoit and Jericho could have defected to the WCW side. It was only Goldberg who was under lock and key for the long term. There's this big fallacy that all the WCW wrestlers were under contract for years. Aside from Goldberg, most of the big names either had their contracts running out (thus meaning they could have bought them out dirt cheap) or they were already out of contract. It was only Goldberg locked down. If WWF wanted them, they could have had them. Even Goldberg. The WWF paid almost $100 million for that shite XFL league. A few million to have Steve Austin vs Goldberg wouldn't have been anything to them.  This is where I get confused. One second The Death of WCW book is being laughed at as being na Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted May 17, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted May 17, 2014 WWF brought in Hall, Nash and Hogan in January and murdered moral to the point where Austin ended up walking out. The idea that the WWF ever gave a shit about moral when in 2002 they restructured the contracts of everyone outside of the headliners is laughable. WWF cut the residuals down during their hottest era because they were starting a Football league. Moral isn't something they cared about when there was only one promotion left standing. Its not like they were going to up sticks and go to XPW. WrestleMania 18 had Hogan, Flair, Hall, Nash and DDP in matches. All well over 40. They brought in all the WCW wrestlers eventually. It was all about squashing a promotion they owned anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members CleetusVanDamme Posted May 18, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted May 18, 2014 I'm firmly in the "WWE fucked the invasion up" camp and am in complete agreement with most of the posts here, but... Â The fact that Booker, the WCW World Champion who SHOULD'VE been protected was presented as a delusional Rock rip off merchant really says it all. How on earth were people expected to buy into him as a top level guy with that gimmick? Â Booker T was being presented as a delusional Rock rip-off-merchant long before he was in WWE. Â And he wasn't even as good at it as Juvi! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members unfitfinlay Posted May 18, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted May 18, 2014 I'm firmly in the "WWE fucked the invasion up" camp and am in complete agreement with most of the posts here, but... The fact that Booker, the WCW World Champion who SHOULD'VE been protected was presented as a delusional Rock rip off merchant really says it all. How on earth were people expected to buy into him as a top level guy with that gimmick?  Booker T was being presented as a delusional Rock rip-off-merchant long before he was in WWE.  And he wasn't even as good at it as Juvi!  Oh, his character towards the end of WCW was definitely trying to be their version of The Rock and nicked loads off him, I'll give you that. It wasn't like he was constantly referring to himself in the third person as "The Book" though, or referring to the Spinaroonie as "The Most Electrifying Move in Sports Entertainment" or claiming The Rock ripped him off while the Commentators talked about what a delusional fuckwit he was. It was midcard comedy stuff and should've been left to someone more expendable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Rock Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I really enjoyed the Invasion storyline from what i remember the WCW stars seemed to get fair treatment, titles were switched between the 2 sides as well as wins and losses. It was obvious WWE were going to win the war and throughout over shadow the WCW/ECW stars, they were in WWE's yard in-front of WWE fans, WWE had the bigger more over stars but i don't think WWE buried the Alliance stars. I think because of the storyline a lot of Alliance stars were elevated after working with the WWE stars. The storyline had cliff hangers, drama, excellent matches more than what we have now in a lot of ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undefeated Steak Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Is there a worst post of the year award? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCW Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 You thought that Taker's big chinned ex wife pinning one of the biggest WCW stars WWF bothered to bring in (DDP) was fair treatment and made sense?and turning Booker T into a low level comedy act who couldn't beat The Rock in a 2-1 handicap match,even with a dodgy referee on his side?or Austin constantly humiliating the WCW/ECW mid carders in his promos? Â WCW/ECW were presented as a threat up until Invasion and they drew a monster buyrate because of it.WWF annihilated them at Summerslam a month later for no good reason (other than ego) and that was that really.Then lads like Test and Christian started to join the 'Alliance', and the invasion was dead and buried a month or two later at Survivor Series. Â I enjoyed the Invasion storyline too because it was fresh after WWF had gone through a period of stagnation,but it could have been so much better if Vince and co had put their egos aside and not been cunts about it.Imagine if they had kept things going and at the 02 Rumble they brought in the nWo,Flair,Steiner,Bischoff and teased who's side HHH would join etc and set things up to culminate at Mania.Would have been amazing and drawn massive money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I bet C-Rock still listens to Lostprophets just to show how against the grain he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronSheik Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 As a mark kid, the fashion in which Yokozuno eliminated Randy Savage from the Rumble left me bitterly disappointed and let down... I remember thinking "what the fuck are you playing at Savage? That push should never have been enough to get you over the top rope!?"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.