Big Jock Knew Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Why is it that if anyone doesn't bum CM Punk, it's because they are trying to be 'counter-cool' or anti-smart mark? It's this exact attitude from Punk's fans that puts so many people off the guy. What if some people just don't enjoy everything he does and aren't completely blinkered to his faults? Â The argument works both ways. He's now getting flak because the announcers don't acknowledge that it's a tribute to Randy Savage. By that logic, he should stop the match, walk over to the commentary table and demand that they do so. Even then he will probably be castigated for being a mark and trying to derail the show. Perhaps people should look more closely at Lanny Poffo's allegations that nobody from WWE extended their condolences to him except Howard Finkel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 The argument works both ways. He's now getting flak because the announcers don't acknowledge that it's a tribute to Randy Savage. By that logic, he should stop the match, walk over to the commentary table and demand that they do so. Even then he will probably be castigated for being a mark and trying to derail the show. Perhaps people should look more closely at Lanny Poffo's allegations that nobody from WWE extended their condolences to him except Howard Finkel. Or perhaps a heel could stop paying tribute to a dead wrestler? That's worth looking into as well. If Randy Orton turned heel next week and started doing throwing a towel in the air and catching it he'd get the same shit. When Jericho turned heel every babyface action went out the window. That's what heels should do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to rip a distinctive and recognised move off someone else: people didn't seem to care too much about The Rock using the Sharpshooter. And, without Eddy's frogsplash, Chavo probably wouldn't be anywhere near as over as he is now (which isn't much, but it's more than he would be without it). Â EDIT: Whoops, just saw Ian's most recent point. I dunno - I think Punk using the Macho Elbow makes him look like even more of a cunt as a heel, because it comes across as smug. "Hey, look - a guy you hate is using the finish of someone you liked." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 It doesn't come across like that at all Carbomb. You'rs just making your own reasoning to justify it there. It's clear as day to anyone when he started using it what the context was and that hasn't changed. Â Little touches and homages to those who came before you and inspired you can be fine and can be great little touches to notice. An example that is actually very relevant to Iuns example is Brock actually started using a variation, quite a big variation mind, of the PerfectPlex after Hennig passed and it didn't take anything away from him being a monster heel, the difference being there was a connection there. Kust like there is with Bryan wearing marroon tights. CM Punks Macho Elbow isn't one of these instances though, it really is horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 B) Specifically Brets matches being predictable, routine and the majority of his matches being very similar. I don't think that could be any further from the truth and anyone who genuinely thinks and believes that doesn't understand wrestling in the slightest in my opinion. That, or you're a robot or something with no concept of emotion or psychology and just see and recognise moves. Â Fair enough. Perhaps my memory is very foggy then. I remember a lot of Bret Hart matches being similar in structure, but this was (a) very early in my fandom, (b) a lot of what i saw were from free tv matches at te time and Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Eddie Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Isn't the Punk elbow drop argument really just as silly as the Cena's "crap" STF argument? Both moves get a reaction/pop, they are established trademark moves for each guy and the vast majority of the audience reacts accordingly. Only a small minority of fans have a problem with either, and none of it makes much difference. I'm not saying you are "wrong" if it annoys you a bit (in either instance) but neither move is a detriment to their act, in fact both moves are over and work fine. Â Cena has gotten an insane response in the past for slapping on his "shitty, doesn't look like it hurts at all" STF, just the same as Punk has gotten great reactions as a face and a chorus of boos as a heel when dropping his "sloppy, poor-man's Randy Savage rip-off " elbow drop. Â -- Â Regarding Bret, it's interesting to see how many big matches of his ended with neither him nor his opponent using their regular finish. Owen and Davy beat him with roll-up reversals, he beat Piper with that sleeper counter, Diesel with a small-package etc... Â Bret was great at unexpected finishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 Regarding Bret, it's interesting to see how many big matches of his ended with neither him nor his opponent using their regular finish. Owen and Davy beat him with roll-up reversals, he beat Piper with that sleeper counter, Diesel with a small-package etc... Bret was great at unexpected finishes. This is largely because his established finish was a submission move, which is not often the preferred finish in a big match situation because it's a pretty definitive end. Lots of guys with submission finishes have to find alternative ways to end their matches. I agree that Bret was the master of it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Eddie Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Regarding Bret, it's interesting to see how many big matches of his ended with neither him nor his opponent using their regular finish. Owen and Davy beat him with roll-up reversals, he beat Piper with that sleeper counter, Diesel with a small-package etc... Bret was great at unexpected finishes. This is largely because his established finish was a submission move, which is not often the preferred finish in a big match situation because it's a pretty definitive end. Lots of guys with submission finishes have to find alternative ways to end their matches. I agree that Bret was the master of it, though.   Oh yeah, absolutely. Especially people like Piper and Diesel in particular, who were faces when those finishes happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Also, Bret didn't like laying down, so he'd have always preferred losing to chance roll ups to being properly beaten by a finisher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 It was Bret Hart's finisher that was never used when he won. Not when he was losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 It doesn't come across like that at all Carbomb. You'rs just making your own reasoning to justify it there. It's clear as day to anyone when he started using it what the context was and that hasn't changed. Little touches and homages to those who came before you and inspired you can be fine and can be great little touches to notice. An example that is actually very relevant to Iuns example is Brock actually started using a variation, quite a big variation mind, of the PerfectPlex after Hennig passed and it didn't take anything away from him being a monster heel, the difference being there was a connection there. Kust like there is with Bryan wearing marroon tights. CM Punks Macho Elbow isn't one of these instances though, it really is horrible.  I'm not making anything fit anything. That's genuinely how it's coming across, mainly because of the really sleazy grin and arrogant posture he has when he does the signal. I know what the context was when he started doing it. The actual elbow is rubbish, though.  Heels often don't always drops moves to fit their heel shtick, they modify them to look heelish. Take the People's/Corporate Elbow, for instance. The Rock, depending on whether he's heel or face, often changed the nuances of it to reflect his character at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King Of Swing Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Regarding Bret, it's interesting to see how many big matches of his ended with neither him nor his opponent using their regular finish. Owen and Davy beat him with roll-up reversals, he beat Piper with that sleeper counter, Diesel with a small-package etc... Bret was great at unexpected finishes. This is largely because his established finish was a submission move, which is not often the preferred finish in a big match situation because it's a pretty definitive end. Lots of guys with submission finishes have to find alternative ways to end their matches. I agree that Bret was the master of it, though.  He really was the master of it and King of the Ring 93 is probably the greatest example of that.  Beat Razor Ramon by reversing a top rope back suplex into a pin. Beat Mr. Perfect by reversing a small package. Beat Bam Bam Bigelow with a victory roll.  Now I'm feeling the urge to watch the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 Nah, Bret was predictable and routine. All his matches were the same. They've all got back breakers and Russian leg sweeps in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LWOLeN Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Always felt HHH was pushed. Did he became a main eventer because he really was that good or simply because he was pushed down our troats!? Personally I have never cared about him. Â Bret doesn't shoot. He just gives his unbiased opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted February 3, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 3, 2013 Yeah, there's something in that comment actually. Triple H became great through being pushed I'd say, rather than being so good it insisted it. But so have loads of others. Your Brets, Shawns, Eddies eventually got pushed because they simply were that good. Â I think that's possibly a more interesting discussion point actually. And Triple H would be an interesting one, because he became really good, really quickly once he was thrust into the main event. So maybe he was always that good, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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