Bret shoots on Triple H

[PowerButchi]

Wait, people don't like Sir Mo?

[Guest]

When bret talks about innovation, hhh doesn't have a variety of moves to end matches, it's nearly always the pedigree. Whilst bret, punk and mysterio who he mentions, have used different moves to finish matches.

 

Do think he's wrong though, and that hhh had lots of great matches from 2000-2002

[Rosler28]

Itd be interesting to see where HHH would be seen if he wasnt around in the Attitude era. If hed been in his prime in the 80s and early 90s would people remember him.

 

I think hes had good matches. Hes not the best technician and has the same match with everyone but most wrestlers work the same match every everyone, even Bret Hart had the same routine. It takes the better wrestlers to change things around and make the same old shit exciting like Shawn Michaels did

[Loki]

I'm the same as Ian as regards Punk, and I think it relates to HHH as well.

 

I know that Punk is a good wrestler, and has good matches and all that. But he's not the sort of wrestler that I'd pay to watch. I think it's mainly to do with what he looks like, and how he holds himself. He just comes across as a guy you could probably take. He doesn't act like a wrestler at all.

 

HHH, for all his sins, has always looked like a terrifying pro wrestler, walked like a wrestler, acted like a wrestler. It's the same with guys like Bobby Roode in TNA. When he walks down the aisle, you think "heavyweight wrestler". When Punk walks down the aisle you think "greasy little shit". I know that's part of his, extremely successful heel persona, but it doesn't entice me to part with cash.

 

I also think, and this is also probably unfair, but I hold a slight resentment against Punk and Bryan, because they are the top guys in WWE of their generation, and I can't help but think "Really? Is there nobody else bigger and tougher? You guys are the best they could find?"

 

For all that TNA are struggling now to find new stars, they managed to get the best of the 2000s batch. They have Joe, Roode, Storm, Styles (small but fucking hell, he's a wrestler like Shawn), Magnus, Hernandez. Guys who wouldn't be mistaken for anything else when walking through an airport.

[PowerButchi]

When bret talks about innovation, hhh doesn't have a variety of moves to end matches, it's nearly always the pedigree. Whilst bret, punk and mysterio who he mentions, have used different moves to finish matches.

 

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. I doubt he means using different moves to finish matches as innovation.

 

(And moreover, HHH has used the Sleeper and the Indian Deathlock as well as the pedigree)

 

 

I also think, and this is also probably unfair, but I hold a slight resentment against Punk and Bryan, because they are the top guys in WWE of their generation, and I can't help but think "Really? Is there nobody else bigger and tougher? You guys are the best they could find?"

 

I disagree on Bryan. Mind you, he's always been someone pretty much groomed for greatness. He was even under WWF contract in 2000. One of the most multi faceted wrestlers in a long, long time.

[Loki]

As amusing as his beard is, and as rounded a wrestler as he undoubtedly is, can you imagine wanting to buy a Wrestlemania because he's in the main event?

 

Bryan's a great wrestler in the same vein as Owen Hart, or William Regal. He's fucking admirable but you can't see anyone building a fed around them.

[Vamp]

To be fair whenever Trips finished a match with something other than the Pedigree (during his main event run) people bitched like shit about him holding down everybody else and making them look weak. Bret's just wrogn here. He's wrogn about Punk innovating, he's wrong abotu Trisp not having great matches, he's wrong in that he seems to suggest Rey is better than Trips, he isn't.

 

I dislike Punk. Mostly because he comes across as an odious little shit bag in real life, which probably works for when he's a heel with the argument that all great wrestling characters are just themselves turned to 11 but its not to the point where I want to see him beaten up, I just don't want to see him. I gave him another shake of the dice when he worked with Ryback in the Cell anmd Punk seemed to dominate the majority of the match. Bugger that noise. Its also the position that he's in. Cena seems like the man you'd want carrying your company, for all the talk about the crowd noise and so forth, he's the man. Punk doesn't have that same aura to me, or put in the same effort. Punk just wants to be a wrestler. Which is fine, to some extent, but he's near the top of the biggest company in the world. I want him to be a superstar, and he just isn't. Although in truth the biggest problem I have with Punk (and this isn't addressed at anyone on here actually) is he's inseperable from his really, really obnoxious fans who seem to constantly whine and overrate him. Its like in sports, if one club's fans are a bunch of irritating tits you just can't like the club. Especially when you feel like the club does the same.

[Carbomb]

As amusing as his beard is, and as rounded a wrestler as he undoubtedly is, can you imagine wanting to buy a Wrestlemania because he's in the main event?

 

Yes. In the same way I'd have paid to see a main event with HBK in it. Sure, HBK is a little bigger, but not by much, and you always knew you were going to get a classic from Michaels at WM, no matter whom it was against. This is one of those arguments where I do, to a very limited degree, agree with the smarks - size shouldn't matter so much if you're good at putting on matches and entertaining people. The obsession with size should only go so far, especially when you've got someone like Bryan, who is fucking ripped for a guy of his height and build - I'm not entirely sure what he can do otherwise to improve upon that without having ridiculously painful, expensive and damaging surgery.

 

Bryan, as far as I can see, is the next HBK - small guy, can have amazing, storytelling matches with anyone and make both the story and the participants look great. I'd buy a PPV on that basis, just as I would for HBK/Cena.

 

 

 

Also, concerning Triple H - I actually like that he's only really got one established finish. I've never really gotten this mentality in this day and age that wrestlers need two. Yes, it's more fun for video games, and gives you a little more to look forward to, but sometimes it's even more entertaining when you know a guy has one, monolithic, deadly move that, if he manages to hit it, means it's all over. Yeah, HHH has used the sleeper, the Indian deathlock and the Crossface (and to be fair, I wouldn't necessarily mind if he'd established one of the last two as a regular submission finish because they're both great moves), but ultimately, it's the Pedigree - it's all he's ever needed, and everyone's seen why.

 

Same with HBK to a certain degree, before his last couple of years when he started using that odd figure-four/Sharpshooter hybrid move.

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

The thing is, Bryan's well rounded-ness (not a word, I know) extends beyond his wrestling ability. He's shown to be adept at every situation he's been placed in- serious, goofy, face, heel, midcarder, main eventer, tag team wrestler. He does everything excellent. If he was 6'3", 250 pounds, he'd be considered one of the all time greats. Put him back in the main event mix, and sure, I'd buy him as a Wrestlemania main eventer. I actually can't think of a current full time roster member with the skills (whether wrestling, entertainment, what have you) that Bryan has. Also, I never saw him before WWE and initially thought he was bland, so no ROH smark issue here, he's just won me over the last couple of years.

 

One finishing move is fine. Austin's Stunner, Hogan's leg drop, to a lesser extent Jake's DDT... it works well if you know ring psychology, which Triple H does. If you feel the need to rely on a shitload of finishers to make a dramatic match, then I can see how the opposite argument would be made.

[Up Chuck]

I genuinely think that Bryan is the only guy in the company, and possibly the world, with whom you could do a sellable surprise Rumble win and Wrestlemania underdog build. He's good enough all the way. Put him against heel Hollywood Rock with Lesnar/Undertaker and something else big on the undercard. Nobody will believe that Bryan and Rock would go on last, but then it will when they've already paid, and it'll be so good that nobody will care.

[PunkStep]

At the time, I didn't watch wrestling from 1997 to mid-1999, so when I got back into it I was totally confused when I saw Triple H. When I stopped watching it he was an obnoxious, pompous character that wrestled in pig shit matches that I didn't care about. And in summer 1999, he was this massive trunks-wearing, wet-haired, mercenary bastard. After the initial shock of this being the same Hunter, I bought him almost instantly as a big-time heel. His run from late 1999 to throughout 2000 in my opinion is the best heel run I've seen. He could be cheap and pull out the dirty tricks, but as well as that you know on his day he could cleanly beat the best.

 

And I think this really stated his path to being 'great', which he definitely is no matter what the bitter Hart says. He has had plenty of great matches. Cactus, HBK, Benoit and I'd throw the Taker ones there too. And then you've got cracking matches against the likes of Rock, Jericho, Cena, Sheamus, Nash etc. I was too young to truly appreciate Flair in his prime, so for me Triple H- in addition to bring an undisputed great wrestler, is also the greatest heel I've watched.

[Mr Butternut Squash]

Wait, someone said it's wrong to suggest Rey's better than HHH? CRazyy talk people.

[Carbomb]

I'd say it's not as cut-and-dried as all that. Rey's actually really, really good - he seems to be able to work well with most people he faces, and he's had loads of great matches with Jericho, Punk, Rhodes, Eddy, etc. In terms of consistency, one could argue he is better than Triple H, who isn't always a sure thing.

 

But where Trips wins is his overall star presence, aura, longevity and charisma. He's much better on the mike than Rey is, that's for certain, and his character development has been much more textured and interesting.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I don't know about that. Rey Mysterio was one of the biggest stars WWE has ever had. In 2005, on a worldwide scale, he was a bigger star than John Cena. He owned Mexico for years in WWE. They had a boom period in Mexico a few years back and it was all down to his popularity. And in the US and Europe he was in the top 2 or 3 biggest merchandise sellers and ratings winners for almost a decade. He's currently an out of shape cripple and they won't get rid of him because they are desperate to keep him around until they replace what he brings to the promotion. He was a legitimate numbers mover. When it comes to star power Rey Mysterio was a giant just by his look alone. He's a super hero to kids across the world so his aura is top notch. I'd say he's got massive charisma because when he walks on stage they know he's a star and the kids scream their heads off when he approached them. As far as mic skills and character development, he didn't need it. People wanted Rey Mysterio and that's what they got. You don't change a good thing.

[Carbomb]

I was thinking more in terms of pure ability, really. I know Rey's marketability and appeal is much wider than Triple H's, but conversely, Triple H does seem to be more versatile, higher profile on WWE programming, possibly has more of a "big-time" aura, and like I say, has had more of an eventful character trajectory, whereas Rey has largely stayed the same over the years (not that that's necessarily a bad thing, of course).