Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted February 1, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 1, 2013 In what way was Bret an innovator anyway? Â Many ways. Â Definitely a little harsh here though. Although i agree with him on the assessment of the Hell in a Cell match but, i'd point to the match the year before as an example of a great match. I absolutely adore that match. Bret is the fucking king at storytelling but WrestleMania 27 was a fine match of that ilk too. His view of Punk is interesting, Punk tended to thieve most of his shit from Japan but, i have to admit my views of Punk have gone from - not caring about him on the indies - liking his initial WWE babyface run, liking his heel work, loving his cult leader heel work - going right off him with the face turn - growing on him a bit again with the heel turn - finding a new appreciation for him in the Rock feud. I think he's been pretty great in that and the way he's planted the seeds for that long, loooong before it took place on TV and in social media, other media, etc and kayfabbed us was pretty fucking great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted February 1, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 1, 2013 This is coming from mr 5 moves of doom? Fuck me, you were actually in the ring for wrestling matches. You were in the business. How can you make a post like that? You can have the same moves every match, but that isn't what makes a match different. Predictability doesn't mean doing the same moves. Having a routine is essential to the storytelling process. Â Ians beat me to it here, just what i was going to say. But this combined with your viewpoint on that wrestler calling the Five-O for getting punched in a match...fucking hell, your mind works in a very different way to mine. I'm glad you didn't bother staying with wrestling though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reznor Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Always surprising when someone so good comes out with so much horseshit. Â It sounds more like something his nephew would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 1, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 1, 2013 Is every top wrestler from back in the day a complete mental then? Ric Flair's possibly the best ever depending on what you like and his opinion on what makes a great worker is very off the wall. Hogan's completely nuts, but we all knew that. Roddy Piper calls his matches "fights", so he's off his tits as well. Ultimate Warrior spends 8 hours a day editing videos to bury people on youtube, you he's definite gone. Shawn Michaels is more sane, but in his day (before he found the load) he even used to tell his mates they were shit and he was super insecure about putting people over. Sammartino thinks Flair is terrible. Superstar Graham probably wins this thread. Savage used to use charity events to get publicity to promote a real fight with Hulk Hogan he was never going to have. Â It seems like their heads can't get around the business being exposed, so their brains are stuck between work and shoot and feel the need to really be daft about giving an opinion. Most of them can't help themselves. All these ex-wrestlers have to do is say "yeah, he was good" and move onto another question. Mad heads, the lot of them. Its why I love them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted February 1, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 1, 2013 Triple H's career is an interesting wee debate. Â I always felt he was really ordinary pre-2000; easily the weakest member in DX. I still think that uber hot 2000 period was possibly the best run a heel has ever had in wrestling (in every way). Then he spent a few years being bloated and shite, which led to me not watching until about 2008. Turns out he was quite good in 2008 and has remained that way. Â I kind of know what Bret Hart is going on about though, I felt the Taker and Lesnar matches last year were pretty average/rubbish. Decent stories, but something didn't click. Â I think Triple H has made more money than Bret Hart, mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Bret, always an advocate of ''story-telling'' in the ring, is discrediting someone for his variety of ''moves''. Hilarious. Â Was anyone using the pedigree before Trips' established it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted February 1, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 1, 2013 I'm currently watching Raw from 98 through to 99 and have just got to where Triple H turned heel and joined the corporation. To be honest I can't work out why Vince decided to go with him as the next top heel going by his previous work as Triple H was fucking awful for the most part during the whole period. He was the really shit uncool member of DX and usually an after thought after NAO and X-Pac and the only notable singles matches he had were against The Rock. Everything else he did was really quite unmemorable and his matches were shite. In a way, his transformation from Royal Rumble 99 to 2000 is probably the most amazing transformation in wrestling history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphinx Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Was anyone using the pedigree before Trips' established it? Â I wondered that. I imagine someone used it before, just not sure who. Â I love Triple H so I'm not with Bret on that at all. Taker's banged up and the cell is there as a crutch for Taker being fucked. It doesn't really matter what Bret thinks about the match - the crowd were well into it (from where I was, and from my memory, it seemed to get more of a reaction than Rock/Cena other than when Rock won really) and it helped draw a massive number. Â I've always appreciated how you rarely see Triple H botch and he executes his moves so well. I think his execution, as well as the mannerisms, helped me believe the guy was the elite in the early 00s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew "the ref" coyne Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 This is coming from mr 5 moves of doom? Fuck me, you were actually in the ring for wrestling matches. You were in the business. How can you make a post like that? You can have the same moves every match, but that isn't what makes a match different. Predictability doesn't mean doing the same moves. Having a routine is essential to the storytelling process. Â I know that, but I think you missed my point. After all... I didn't say having routine or a moveset (is that word still banned here?) was a bad thing. Â Bret Hart criticised Triple H for being predictable and being routine, despite himself finding success using the same method. A LOT (not all) of Bret's matches were VERY similar. Hence my "5 moves" comment. He didnt just hit the same five moves... He practically hit them in the same order in a lot of matches match. I would personally say Triple H matches are more varied and that Bret Hart's comments are hypocritical. Â It wasn't so much me saying "god Bret your so predictable" it was more me saying "it worked for you didn't it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane O' Mac Version 2 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Triple H has had plenty of great matches. Wasn't there a large period of time where Bret didn't watch WWF/E? I remember him turning down invites for years because he disagreed with the direction of the content, as well as his bitterness over Montreal. Anyway, a lot of HHH's best matches would have occured during that alleged time period- vs. Cactus at Rumble '00, vs. HBK at Summerslam '02, vs. Benoit & HBK at WMXX to name a few. Â It's everyone's personal preference, and I've obviously seen a great deal more of Hunter than Bret, but I think Triple H has a better, bigger catalogue of great matches than Bret Hart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Joe Joe Jr Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Wouldn't say Punk is an innovator, but more an appreciator of those who came before him, like when throwing in the Macho elbow, or wearing pink when Bret was on the same show. It stands out when we've been used to a lot of guys with little or basic knowledge of what came before, making it to TV in that 04-10ish era. Funnily enough, for all the "Triple H buries CM Punk" newz we've been treated to since about 2005, I would say Punk has taken on that idea that used to be hammered into people's heads that Triple H was a student of the game, hence 'The Game'. Â I thought Bret's opinions were a bit much and didn't think he would be so vocal having mended things so much with WWE, and knowing that Trips will be taking the reigns more and more. A bit of a shame but it's hardly the kind of chip he had on his shoulder in 1999. I get the feeling that Bret and Shawn have had the time to really thrash things out as the main issue was always between them, whereas with Trips, things won't ever be sorted out properly between them because it doesn't really need to be or neither is all that interested in doing so. Â As far as the Trips issue, I would echo what Lance Storm said about him, in that he'll probably never get the praise he deserves because of who he's married to, and yet he'll also get a lot more flack for the same reason. It's a funny spot to be in. That Rumble 2000 match is in my top 3 matches of all time still, perhaps even clinching number one on that list, and having started watching WWF in 2000 he was the epitome of top heel at the time. He'll never be on one of my greatest of all time lists, but he deserves credit all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted February 2, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 2, 2013 It stands out when we've been used to a lot of guys with little knowledge of wrestling making it to TV in the 04-10ish era. Like who? Miz was the biggest wrestling fan in the world and he gets buried for it. Lesnar and Goldberg didn't watch it ever and they were two of the biggest stars of the last 15 years. Fans don't want to see people do moves from people we used to like years ago. Ones persons homage is another persons "marking out". If Miz does it he's a mark. If Punk does it its "paying respect". Â The Macho Elbow is the most offensive move in wrestling for me. I dont care if he wears Bret's tights or wears a Steve Austin t-shirt or rips off KENTA, but that elbow is just disgraceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted February 2, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 2, 2013 This is coming from mr 5 moves of doom? Fuck me, you were actually in the ring for wrestling matches. You were in the business. How can you make a post like that? You can have the same moves every match, but that isn't what makes a match different. Predictability doesn't mean doing the same moves. Having a routine is essential to the storytelling process. Â I know that, but I think you missed my point. After all... I didn't say having routine or a moveset (is that word still banned here?) was a bad thing. Â Bret Hart criticised Triple H for being predictable and being routine, despite himself finding success using the same method. A LOT (not all) of Bret's matches were VERY similar. Hence my "5 moves" comment. He didnt just hit the same five moves... He practically hit them in the same order in a lot of matches match. I would personally say Triple H matches are more varied and that Bret Hart's comments are hypocritical. Â It wasn't so much me saying "god Bret your so predictable" it was more me saying "it worked for you didn't it?" Â I'm pretty sure that is what Ian thought you meant, at least that's how i took it and you're still completely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted February 2, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 2, 2013 Yeah, I honestly don't see what's wrong with someone having their signature spots and doing them in a way people watching know and get into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-d-d-dAz Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I want to lock Ian and CM Punk in a room and see what happens.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.