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Bret shoots on Triple H


Fatty Facesitter

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They've both been around for roughly the same amount of time ain't they? All I'm gonna say is that if I picked a random match from each to watch right now then I can almost guarantee that I'm gonna enjoy watching the shortish, fun, underdog style performance with a hot crowd to the drawn out, bland technical HHH match.

 

Trips certainly has the look and the presence, both are his strongest merits by a considerable distance.

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But surely Triple H's matches aren't all like that, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion this thread? I don't think I know anyone who'd say that about any of the matches mentioned in the HHH review thread.

 

Whilst, like I said, Rey's a lot more consistent for great matches, I would argue Triple H has always been consistently better at doing varied storylines and angles, which is sort of what I was referring to when I mentioned his versatility. I can identify a lot more different Triple H storylines than Rey ones.

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To suggest Rey is better than HHH is madness in my opinion. I was a massive fan of Rey in his WCW years, so I most definetely admire his abillity, but face it, HHH has been a proper main event star for yonks longer. HHH was in and around the main event for most of his WWE career. Mysterio gets chucked in there on occasion, but is prone to doing shitty mid-card feuds with Kane and Chavo.

 

HHH is what a wrestler *should* look like. The entrance, the physique, the intensity, cuts a good promo, and is a fucking evil heel. Pit five of Rey's best matches in WWE against five of HHH's best. HHH will obviously come out on top. None of Rey's matches come near the sheer brilliance of the Cactus Jack match at the Rumble. HHH is quite simply phenomenal.

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How do you even determine 'who's better' between 2 guys who are great yet so very different?

 

I'd much rather watch Rey jr at his best. To me he's the best babyface in the whole of pro wrestling over the past 20 years. But his role, position, style and pretty much everything about him is and always has been at the complete opposite end of the spectrum to Triple H's act, any arguments on who's the best is inevitable just going to constantly go round in circles.

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For me, Bret's comments are fair in the sense that he is probably one of the only wrestlers who could cast such aspersions about Triple H's career. I'm a confessed Bret Hart mark so I view things through pink-tinted glasses, but I would say he's easily one of the best wrestlers ever (if not the best). For my money, Bret is one of the few guys who legitimised holding the title. When he was the champion, the title seemed to matter a great deal and he carried himself like a champion. I can't think of anyone else who came across as "the man" when holding the world title as much as Bret did. Guys like The Undertaker and Steve Austin didn't really need it for their character. That's why I think he's right in having a dig at Triple H's title haul. When he won the title for the fifth time, my mind was blown. I think it's really cheap that someone like Edge, a great worker but not someone I view in the all-time elite, has retired with ten world title runs. Look at Randy Orton as well, who is treading water in the middle of the card and looking like he couldn't give less of a fuck. He has about a million reigns in his past that they can wheel out.

 

This is why I would contest that JBL was the best WWE Champion of the 00s. His reign was superb.

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Pit five of Rey's best matches in WWE against five of HHH's best. HHH will obviously come out on top. None of Rey's matches come near the sheer brilliance of the Cactus Jack match at the Rumble. HHH is quite simply phenomenal.

 

I don't agree that it's obvious at all. Rey's had his fair share of barn-stormers. Yes, the Cactus match is amazing, but Rey vs. Punk, Jericho, Cody et al come pretty damn close, if not equal. Just because they're lower profile doesn't make them worse.

 

Besides, that's not the only criterion to judge a wrestler's career. As I mentioned, Rey is a lot more consistent than Triple H, who has had his fair share of stinkers (and I'm not talking about the much-discussed 2003-4 period). Anyone who saw his Triple Threat with Orton and Cena at Wrestlemania 24 or with Orton at 25 would be inclined to agree, I think.

 

And like I mentioned before, I think it's only in terms of matches that Rey is a bit better. As an overall guy, I think Triple H is superior - he's better on the mike, can carry more complex storylines and angles, and is more adaptable.

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Any chance he could be amping it up a bit? He was on the PPV the other day and he must know which way the wind is blowing re: who's going to be completely in charge pretty soon. There's probably some sort of TV mileage in the two of them with HHH as the boss.

 

On the flipside, he's clearly still very bitter. Can't say I blame him.

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I can see where Bret is coming from and I'm surprised he said it so bluntly since his return to WWE for the odd appearance. Prior to the match at Wrestlemania HHH's matches were predictable and you just knew it would be a few punches, kicks, the odd spinebuster and the Spanish announcement table. Finished with the pedigree. Personally, I can't stand the man. I can't recall which match it was but there was one where you saw the finishing moves at the beginning? Bret prided himself on the storytelling/psychology in a match and he's always slagged off Flair for the same thing.

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It's not, and never has been about the moves. It's about the pacing, the storytelling, the selling and the back-and-forth, getting the crowd into the palm of your hand. I enjoy moves as much as the next man, but Triple H's character is that of a brawler who sometimes uses tech. Hogan's moveset is even smaller and he's the most influential wrestler ever. And the next two are the Rock and Stone Cold, who aren't exactly "tie them up in knots"-type guys.

 

The match you're thinking of having finishers at the beginning was Triple H vs. Orton at WM25. That's one of the crap ones I referenced. But by the same token, just as I used it as an example of how Triple H isn't consistent, you can't possibly use that as an example of him being rubbish overall, especially with all the amazing matches he's had so far mentioned.

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This is coming from mr 5 moves of doom?

Fuck me, you were actually in the ring for wrestling matches. You were in the business. How can you make a post like that? You can have the same moves every match, but that isn't what makes a match different. Predictability doesn't mean doing the same moves. Having a routine is essential to the storytelling process.

 

I know that, but I think you missed my point. After all... I didn't say having routine or a moveset (is that word still banned here?) was a bad thing.

 

Bret Hart criticised Triple H for being predictable and being routine, despite himself finding success using the same method. A LOT (not all) of Bret's matches were VERY similar. Hence my "5 moves" comment. He didnt just hit the same five moves... He practically hit them in the same order in a lot of matches match. I would personally say Triple H matches are more varied and that Bret Hart's comments are hypocritical.

 

It wasn't so much me saying "god Bret your so predictable" it was more me saying "it worked for you didn't it?"

 

I'm pretty sure that is what Ian thought you meant, at least that's how i took it and you're still completely wrong.

 

Ian implied that I was against set routines in matches and against wrestlers having a set of moves. Which I'm not. in fact it's important. So clearly there was some cross wires here.

 

Just so I'm clear, what do you think I'm wrong about?

 

A) Everything.

 

B) Specifically Brets matches being predictable, routine and the majority of his matches being very similar. I don't think that could be any further from the truth and anyone who genuinely thinks and believes that doesn't understand wrestling in the slightest in my opinion. That, or you're a robot or something with no concept of emotion or psychology and just see and recognise moves.

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Wrestling legacies are purely based around opinions, and what peoples opinions are of a great worker, match, interview etc....are.

Brets entitled to his. HHH isnt one of my top ten in the last 27 years i've been following the WWF/WWE, but he has had great matches and been involved in great angles, which sort off contistutes to being a great worker as well.

Off the top of my head in any order some of HHH'S best moments have been....

V's The return of Cactus Jack at MSG IN 97 i think, his facials and selling throughout the match were excellent.

Didnt he fight the Brawler around 2000 as well on SD which was a good match, Funaki as well i think.

v's The Taker at 17 was excellent - best match of their series.

Making Batista.

SS02.

Some of the segs in the first run of DX with Shawn, he was very underated here, I think this was when he first found his feet in the WWF.

His involvement in Shawns breakdown before his final Taker match was also underated.

around 2004 when he destroyed Regal for being Eugenes buddy was classic.

Many more as wel i guess. Hes not one of my favourites but i would class him a great worker and he did have a few great matches.

Seems a very level headed chap as well and i dont think he will end up confused between wrestling and real life.

He still fucked up Goldberg and Steiner though in 2003. Especially SummerSlam 03, worst result of a match ever.

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Pit five of Rey's best matches in WWE against five of HHH's best. HHH will obviously come out on top. None of Rey's matches come near the sheer brilliance of the Cactus Jack match at the Rumble. HHH is quite simply phenomenal.

 

I don't agree that it's obvious at all. Rey's had his fair share of barn-stormers. Yes, the Cactus match is amazing, but Rey vs. Punk, Jericho, Cody et al come pretty damn close, if not equal. Just because they're lower profile doesn't make them worse.

Does Rey Mysterio vs Cody Rhodes really come close to Triple H vs Cactus Jack for you?

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Pit five of Rey's best matches in WWE against five of HHH's best. HHH will obviously come out on top. None of Rey's matches come near the sheer brilliance of the Cactus Jack match at the Rumble. HHH is quite simply phenomenal.

 

I don't agree that it's obvious at all. Rey's had his fair share of barn-stormers. Yes, the Cactus match is amazing, but Rey vs. Punk, Jericho, Cody et al come pretty damn close, if not equal. Just because they're lower profile doesn't make them worse.

Does Rey Mysterio vs Cody Rhodes really come close to Triple H vs Cactus Jack for you?

 

Nah, maybe not. But my main point is that I don't think the top five of all of Triple H's matches will trump every single one of the top five Rey's had; plus, I think Rey is definitely more consistent. But that is the only area I personally would place him above Triple H in terms of ability.

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