The Metal/Punk/Rock Thread

[Egg Shen]

5 hours ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Ban backing tapes, though.

 

I agree, its an issue that's gonna continue to get worse though. I got no issue with some strings or keys piped in, but some bands are pretty much all tape at this point.

I saw Bush last year and i'd say 75% of the sound coming off the stage was tape, including almost all of the vocals. It was very obvious when the band and Rossdale was actually performing live compared to when they weren't, it was odd and just looked and sounded all too perfect.

As another example, there is a young band out now called South Arcade (think they are on the main stage at Download) that for whatever reason continually show up in my algorithm on Instagram and I don't think anything they do on stage is authentic. Not that it seems to bother their audience mind.

 

[cobra_gordo]

What makes live music so enjoyable is the differences between what you hear at a gig and what's on record. I've been to a few gigs (generally pop stuff in arenas) where they may as well have put a CD on and just done a live vocal on top.

I'm mostly against backing tracks, particularly if it's something relied upon such as adding extra vocal tracks or a whole second guitar track for instance. I've looked in to in-ear monitoring systems for us so I could put the samples we use on a backing track but that's to take the responsibility of triggering them on time away from one of us, I'd never want it to become a crutch to rely on. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

In general, I want to agree with Eggers that it's fine if it's just some background strings or atmosphere. Whatever. But, it's a gateway drug I think. Once you've decided you can do that, I think it becomes a lot easier to decide to put more stuff on tape.

The beauty of live music is the interplay of musicians, the way things take different shapes live and the palpable sense it could go wrong. Tapes cock that up, as even if you don't want to add a keyboard player to your splits (as a member of the keys player union, I have thoughts on this too) the tape keeps everyone else centred. They can't change things, they can't speed up or slow down in the moment, they're much less likely to make mistakes. The tape is king.

I also don't want to be sniffy about click tracks, but they're just as sanitising for heavy music.

 

[wordsfromlee]

Click tracks and automated effect changes are another one ruined live music. It’s the reason I found Meshuggah so boring when I saw them. Everything was played to a click, all the guitar effects were automatically changed by a computer and everything sounded so sterile and lifeless. I get that some bands can be so good live that they sound “just like on the CD” but this sounded like they had just put the CD on. 
 

I remember chatting to the singer of Vex Red years ago and he said one of the main reasons he originally quit the band was he was sick of having to play to a click track and playing every song the exact same every night, with no room for any kind of deviation. 

[Merzbow]

2 hours ago, wordsfromlee said:

all the guitar effects were automatically changed by a computer

God that sounds horrible, especially as someone that loves playing with effects pedals live. It's part of the playing in my opinion.

[Egg Shen]

The rise of social media is probably a big reason for bands adopting it too. Go read comments on any bands live performance and if it doesn't sound exactly like the cd  it is just brutally negative. I try to stay away from comments as much as possible because it's utterly depressing, but sometimes I do get sucked into them and if I was an artist reading that, id probably wanna play to tape as well.

 

[wordsfromlee]

40 minutes ago, Merzbow said:

God that sounds horrible, especially as someone that loves playing with effects pedals live. It's part of the playing in my opinion.

I'd be out of a job too if bands stopped using pedals and went fully digital and automated.

[WyattSheepMask]

5 hours ago, cobra_gordo said:

What makes live music so enjoyable is the differences between what you hear at a gig and what's on record. I've been to a few gigs (generally pop stuff in arenas) where they may as well have put a CD on and just done a live vocal on top.

I'm mostly against backing tracks, particularly if it's something relied upon such as adding extra vocal tracks or a whole second guitar track for instance. I've looked in to in-ear monitoring systems for us so I could put the samples we use on a backing track but that's to take the responsibility of triggering them on time away from one of us, I'd never want it to become a crutch to rely on. 

Was it Falling In Reverse who had to cancel a bunch of tour dates the other year because their laptops had gone missing in transit?

If you’re so reliant on backing tracks, samples, effects or whatever that you can’t produce something of a show outside of drums, guitars and bass, you should be blacklisted completely 

[cobra_gordo]

11 hours ago, wordsfromlee said:

Click tracks and automated effect changes are another one ruined live music.

I'm fully against having effects changed automatically as, like you say, hitting that clean channel a second too early or too late does add a human element. I'm really torn on clicks. Like I mentioned earlier I would be happy for our drummer to have a click so we can run samples and for me to have my usual monitor mix but in my ears. Some of the wedges at smaller venues are HORRENDOUS and it can be a nightmare to hear what you're doing, as mad as that sounds as a pretty loud sludge band. Stages construction can completely muffle what's directly behind you, it's bizarre.

6 hours ago, WyattSheepMask said:

If you’re so reliant on backing tracks, samples, effects or whatever that you can’t produce something of a show outside of drums, guitars and bass, you should be blacklisted completely 

It's also a sound guys worst nightmare, particularly on something like a festival or all-dayer where you're just doing a line check before going on, running a verse and a chorus if you're lucky.

We had a bit of a technical disaster at Arctangent last year when, as we were setting up, our drummer realised he'd left the power supply for the sample pad at home. All we use it for is our intro tape (Sean Bean saying BASTARD over and over and over) and the big centrepiece sample of a song called Chapter and Hearse. That sample is a really critical point in the song, it's got lines from the film Network and has some acoustic guitar on and piano instead of bass, it's the big emotional cornerstone of the whole track. It's the only time I'd use a sample to replace an instrument because fuck trying to take an acoustic on tour for a minute and a half long section and getting the vocal and the instrumentation to sync up is tricky at best. Anyway, we were scrambling to find a replacement power supply, all the ones we tried didn't work and fortunately in the end managed to get the sample file to someone at the mixing desk who hit play when we gave a nod. It was seamless. Up to about ten seconds before we walked on stage though we were ready to just play the section live, use a clean guitar sound, have the bassist play the piano part and lose the sampled words altogether. The point I'm trying to make is that we're drilled and rehearsed to an extent where we can do that if needed. My view is that if you're using samples you need to know how to play an alternative if the shit hits the fan, otherwise you may aswell just be doing karaoke.

[Merzbow]

If you really want a backup for samples I'd recommend someone having Koala on their phone, it's been my go-to since I started playing live. I've got a Nick Gage talking shit on Benjamin Netanyahu one ready for my next gig, along with all my usuals.

[wordsfromlee]

1 hour ago, cobra_gordo said:

I'm fully against having effects changed automatically as, like you say, hitting that clean channel a second too early or too late does add a human element. I'm really torn on clicks. Like I mentioned earlier I would be happy for our drummer to have a click so we can run samples and for me to have my usual monitor mix but in my ears. Some of the wedges at smaller venues are HORRENDOUS and it can be a nightmare to hear what you're doing, as mad as that sounds as a pretty loud sludge band. Stages construction can completely muffle what's directly behind you, it's bizarre.

Do you guys trigger your samples live or are they automated to play at the right time in the song? It's just that if you're triggering them live yourselves, why would you play to a click?

[cobra_gordo]

11 hours ago, Merzbow said:

I'd recommend someone having Koala on their phone

Never heard of it before, will have a look in to that as a backup

10 hours ago, wordsfromlee said:

Do you guys trigger your samples live or are they automated to play at the right time in the song? It's just that if you're triggering them live yourselves, why would you play to a click?

We currently have our drummer trigger them with a sample pad. I really don't want to play to a click but if we did, I could automate the samples and save him a job. Goes from taking one piece of equipment to taking a laptop though. If we went down that route I could look at syncing up lighting. It's a thin line to tread as I like how our music sounds live, I wouldn't want to sterilise it, just improve the performance aspect.

[wordsfromlee]

1 hour ago, cobra_gordo said:

We currently have our drummer trigger them with a sample pad. I really don't want to play to a click but if we did, I could automate the samples and save him a job. Goes from taking one piece of equipment to taking a laptop though. If we went down that route I could look at syncing up lighting. It's a thin line to tread as I like how our music sounds live, I wouldn't want to sterilise it, just improve the performance aspect.

The last time I saw Arcane Roots they played to a click so they could sync up the lights and I think it was detrimental to the performance. Like you said, it really sterilised it and the show didn’t feel anywhere near as good as the previous times I’d seen them when they hadn’t used the click. 

[CTXRussomark]

A very timely example being Linkin Park having to temporarily halt their headline slot at Download last night (right in the middle of One Step Closer) for some crowd safety issues.  No issue with halting the show obviously but after it was resolved Emily Armstrong said something like "From the top guys....oh wait we can't on this one" and ended up just restarting the last 60 seconds of the song with all momentum completely lost.  It really made me realise how beholden bands are to technology thesedays.  It wasn't anywhere near the end of the set and what followed was a long video interlude ahead of the next song, so it wasn't as if they were short of time. They obviously just don't have the ability to change things up on the fly like that without it causing a bunch of issues from a production standpoint.  Understandable given the scale we're talking about here I guess, but I'm sure everyone in the crowd would have happily skipped one of the later songs to get a full run through of One Step Closer. 

[Egg Shen]

I saw Drowning Pool last night and seeing the guitarist dealing with his guitar cutting in and out all night and clamouring around to get it fixed whilst the rest of the band trooped on was a beautiful thing to witness.

Long live the live show.

Oh, and this new version of Snot is tremendous