More under-rated than Lex

[gmoney]

11 minutes ago, Merzbow said:

All of Lance's best work was comedy stuff, where being the straight man was used as a joke. I feel like he'd rather be known as a technical wizard but honestly he really wasn't amazing in ring.

He does a class obituary, though.

I actually love Lance's in ring work aesthetically. He's one of the smoothest, most enjoyable to watch that I can think of. However I can't think of one match in particular, or big dramatic finish. It's all a bit of a blur of competence. I do agree that his comedy stuff is great. 

[ReturnOfTheMack]

8 minutes ago, gmoney said:

My issue with Haku is that even though I know he's well hard, he looks so lovely and avuncular I could never take him seriously as a threat. That attitude would get me eye pulled out if I met him in real life, I'm sure.  

His video reaction to the Shockmaster stuff is just perfect. Proper friendly old man laugh.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

9 minutes ago, gmoney said:

 

Double post dick

Edited March 2, 2025 by ReturnOfTheMack

[IronSheik]

Within the internet smart fan community, Taker was being shat on and told to retire from the American Bad Ass era in early 2000 onwards. He was delivering some incredible work for a further eleven or twelve years, before tailing off. 

[air_raid]

9 hours ago, gmoney said:

avuncular 

I misread this as “uncular” as in like an uncle. Works.

[gmoney]

I've always taken avuncular to be "uncle like" to be honest. 

 

EDIT: 19th century: from Latin avunculus ‘maternal uncle’

Edited March 3, 2025 by gmoney

[BomberPat]

On 2/28/2025 at 8:38 PM, herbie747 said:

I loved Gorilla. Voice of my childhood. And even now when I listen to him, he was perfectly fine. 

I think Gorilla Monsoon getting slated by Meltzer and Observer readers is the other side of the coin of Joey Styles being considered the best announcer in the world for years, despite, in hindsight, often being a distraction and a very irritating presence. Gorilla Monsoon didn't name all the moves, Joey Styles did. It's the equivalent of thinking someone is a better wrestler because they do more moves.

In terms of underrated wrestlers, I always have a soft spot for any big lug, no matter how useless they seem on paper. Whenever someone slagged off somebody like Great Khali, I'd say that if you can't find a spot on your roster for a 7'+ Indian bloke, you've got no business booking wrestling.

Closer to home, Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks. Stacks I think was a genuinely underrated wrestler who got tarred with the "just a fat bloke bumping his belly into you" brush with our Shirley, when he always had a lot more to him than that, and even Big Daddy, there's something there, because if it was as easy as just doing what he did, everyone would have done it. 

[tiger_rick]

18 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Closer to home, Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks. Stacks I think was a genuinely underrated wrestler who got tarred with the "just a fat bloke bumping his belly into you" brush with our Shirley, when he always had a lot more to him than that, and even Big Daddy, there's something there, because if it was as easy as just doing what he did, everyone would have done it. 

They're good shouts. When genuine criticisms become hyperbole and then that hyperbole forms general opinion, that's where a lot of under-rating, or outright not rating, comes from. It's very much like the other thread on here about Hogan not being able to wrestle. 

I don't like Hogan. I don't like the matches he works, for the most part. I don't like the plodding nature of them and I don't like the match being built around superhuman comebacks and no-selling. I think that's all fair criticism. When that becomes Hulk couldn't work, or wrestle, that's a nonsense. His selling, the way a crowd reacted to a twitch of his arm or a desperate look, the way the crowd actively begged for him to overcome. All brilliant, all incredible work. Masterful pro-wrestling. Not for me though.

[Carbomb]

I can see the argument for Haystacks, but not Daddy. Yes, he had a certain charisma about him, a likeable aura that made people support him, and his look was good for its time, but his work was actively damaging. I don't just mean in terms of making British wrestling look crappy compared with American, I mean in terms of the simple fact that he was booked into a position way beyond his capabilities. If he'd been in a prominent midcard position, like Dusty Rhodes in the WWF, that would've been fine. But he was frequently booked in the main event - even though he could never be British champion, because he was simply too unfit to work anything other than tag matches. And he was booked as near-invincible, at the expense of athletic wrestlers, of whom there were some infinitely more athletic, could work singles matches, and had a chance of "carrying" British wrestling had they been booked in that way. Belly butts and a splash are fun if that's all you're expecting, but when that's all you get for years, don't be surprised when people are turned off it.

Looking at things by-and-large, I'm not sure I can point to anyone who could've taken the mantle from Big Daddy, but I think that's largely down to the booking killing off any imagination. Obviously, Kendo couldn't, as he was much better suited to being a heel, and his gimmick meant a certain amount of "distance" or "disconnect" from the audience, but Wayne Bridges had a great look, and could do some impressive stuff. "Rollerball" Rocco was over, spectacular, and colourful, and wasn't too shabby on the mike. I do wonder what things might have been like if Steve/William Regal or Robbie Brookside had been given a bit more; could they have been booked to a point where they could capture the imagination of audiences? Pat Roach had crossover appeal from Auf Wiedersehn, Pet, as well as the movies he'd done, and he had a certain avuncular appeal as well - and had a good look and could work.

Ultimately, I guess we come back to what I was saying: it probably wasn't possible to save British wrestling, really, not in the face of the onslaught of Americanism and specifically McMahon's campaign. But Big Daddy definitely didn't help. He may have been a solid worker back in the 60s, but even for those for whom it's more about character than actual wrestling, he was still quite damaging.

Put it this way: I remember there being a debate on here, about 2004/5, regarding the Wrestling Hall of Fame's constant refusal to include Big Daddy in it. I don't agree with it, and there are some bollocks reasons given for the criteria that fail to take into account cultural exceptions that make it difficult to meet the broadly American-specific requirements. However, there was one argument that did make sense: influence in the industry. When you think about it, Daddy didn't really influence or inspire anyone. Nobody since him has worked or tried to work like him, nobody's copied or taken anything from his gimmick, or his look (deliberately, that is). He may have made people a lot of money initially, but his involvement cost people more in the end. It's more Max Crabtree's fault, really, but Shirley definitely contributed to it.

[gmoney]

9 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

nobody's copied or taken anything from his gimmick, or his look (deliberately, that is). 

[Mr Butternut Squash]

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

I think Gorilla Monsoon getting slated by Meltzer and Observer readers is the other side of the coin of Joey Styles being considered the best announcer in the world for years, despite, in hindsight, often being a distraction and a very irritating presence. Gorilla Monsoon didn't name all the moves, Joey Styles did. It's the equivalent of thinking someone is a better wrestler because they do more moves.

I thought the criticism of Gorilla had to do with how he'd constantly call the wrestlers out when he thought their stuff didn't look good, rather than his lack of move knowledge.

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, gmoney said:

Dammit, I'd forgotten that, like Daddy, he'd become a household name

[theringmaster]

On 2/28/2025 at 4:17 PM, RedTwoster said:

X-Pac.

The first time I encountered X-Pac - outside of in the Smackdown video games - was through the term ‘X-Pac heat’. That gave me the idea he was probably a bit shit.

Going back and watching his matches though, he was a fantastic wrestler who deserves more credit than he seems to get. From WWF, to TNA he has plenty of of great matches to his name. 

I’m kind of surprised that he’s not turned up in WWE in any significant way since leaving them in the early 2000s; particularly when you consider his friendship with Triple H. 

I am convinced 'X Pac heat' was just a internet only term, it wasn't actually real. I lived through all his career and not once do i remember 'go away heat on him', he was a heel (admittedly with a naff faction at the time) but this idea nobody wanted to see him was nonsense; He was 123 kid, in dx and the nwo, he was such a staple of the 90s.

My pick is Liv Morgan, she's brilliant at what she does but there's this weird thing that she is terrible when talked about online. No, she isn't Becky Lynch, Asuka or whomever but that's kind of the point, she is clearly one of the top female wrestlers in the world in my book. A few years back people will look at her 2024 and realaise how good she actually was.

[westlondonmist]

Do you know what, after the above I'm also going to say Grado. He's not the best wrestler in ring, but he knew his limitations and he is/was carryable in the ring as he did have some decent matches. He was part of a successful ICW, and also I saw him at Wembley with Impact and the crowd (what there was of one) went bananas. I think he did have some influence too, as he was part of a re-emerging UK scene. 

 

[gmoney]

54 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Put it this way: I remember there being a debate on here, about 2004/5, regarding the Wrestling Hall of Fame's constant refusal to include Big Daddy in it. I don't agree with it, and there are some bollocks reasons given for the criteria that fail to take into account cultural exceptions that make it difficult to meet the broadly American-specific requirements. However, there was one argument that did make sense: influence in the industry. When you think about it, Daddy didn't really influence or inspire anyone. Nobody since him has worked or tried to work like him, nobody's copied or taken anything from his gimmick, or his look (deliberately, that is). He may have made people a lot of money initially, but his involvement cost people more in the end. It's more Max Crabtree's fault, really, but Shirley definitely contributed to it.

Thinking about this a little more deeply, I wonder if people involved in the British wrestling scene were too embarrassed by Daddy to try something similar and not giving audiences what they clearly wanted (i.e a big daft colourful fat bloke in main events) Why weren't more people trying to copy a proven successful gimmick? Maybe they did and none of them took, but the sense I always get from contemporaries of his and people in the scene later on is that they were desperate to move away from that sort of silliness and focus on the hard man/technical side of British wrestling. There's always been a self consciousness and shame about Daddy, but you can't argue that it was what people happily paid to see in this country for a very long time.