King Coconut Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 If you're discounting a politician just because they've reneged on a promise in the past you've got no interest in democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
organizedkaos Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) That's an amazing finish, alas laughing out loud in the office is never quite a great look 😀 The cynical/pessismist part of me really does worry that this next 5 years is really going to see the rise in far right politics here, possibly moreso because of a Labour win. Next generation of Tories is likely to be the culture war crew, this whole idea that neither version of the main parties will bring change and thus best vote for Farage is likely to persist because there isn't going to be so much visible change to many. Also you've got Starmer seemingly not being very good at shutting these people down. I get that we might get "hardened lawyer" Starmer in the future and at the moment he's trying to get every possible vote but there'll be another election sooner than later - if you're always trying to court the vote of racists that's going to effect what you can and can't say. If we want to use some sort of trite public transport analogy there's a genuine concern that in the long run this takes us further from where I would like things to be. (Yes I absolutely realise that ideological shift isn't as big a concern as the day to day where there is probably some more immediate good to be done by the Labour party and immediate bad that might be done by another Tory party - this is just speculation about overall where things might go) Edited June 13 by organizedkaos Stanley Clarke - The Dancer (Mr. PC Edit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 3 minutes ago, organizedkaos said: The cynical/pessismist part of me really does worry that this next 5 years is really going to see the rise in far right politics here, possibly moreso if Labour win Naomi Klein agrees. 3 minutes ago, organizedkaos said: we want to use some sort of trite public transport analogy there's a genuine concern that in the long run this takes us further from where I would like things to be. To further that, the more you use the current route that takes you miles away, the less chance of them building a stop closer to where you want it. 9 minutes ago, King Coconut said: If you're discounting a politician just because they've reneged on a promise in the past you've got no interest in democracy. There’s reneging on a promise, and then there’s reneging constantly on promises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 1 hour ago, Chest Rockwell said: This isn't true though, even within our election system, we've had Tory coalitions very recently with both the Lib Dems and the DUP. My ideal outcome is a Labour coalition. Oh I’d love a Labour/Lib Dem/Green Ménage À Trois, especially if we actually got done effective actions from the Libs this time, I meant more as it’s always only going to be a 2 horse race, sometimes with a deal to be done to secure a majority which is looking less likely at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 44 minutes ago, FLips said: I'm no expert but based on every poll I've seen I'd be shocked. There needs to be a serious re-think of the way politics is presented as a country anyway. We're stuck in a two-party system with rarely any deviation from it and I would argue a big cause of that other than stubbornly stuck in their ways supporters of each party is that there's not a level playing field for every party. I know they do these 7-leader debates but they should all be that. We shouldn't have just Tory vs Labour debates where all the other parties are afterthoughts or it will never change the perception they're wasted votes or coalition backups. It's not just how politics is presented, though; we've been conditioned via political culture that that's how it works, and not just over here, but in the US too. I've asserted many times on here that politics does not begin and end at the ballot box, and there are a lot of people out there now who recognise this. Back when Trump got elected, there were the usual complaints from third party candidates and supporters that people weren't "being imaginative" enough. This prompted an excellent response (I wish I could remember from whom) on Twitter that summed it all up: if you're a party outside the usual two-horse race, complaining and ranting that the electorate aren't being imaginative enough is going to achieve the sum total of fuck-all, because you're making the usual mistake of just putting up a candidate and then waiting to see what happens. Any party serious about breaking the stranglehold of governmental parties has to put the fucking work in, and that means all the stuff that isn't centred around elections. If you want people to like your politics, you can't tell them about the benefits, you've got to show them, with initiatives, schemes, organisation, that sort of thing. Activism, essentially - real activism, not just campaigning and leafleting. Demonstrate to people, in real, material terms, just how your politics is meant to work, so that, no matter what smears the big boys throw at you, they won't stick with the people whose vote you're looking to gain. Don't just be seen at events and projects organised by other groups, put them together yourself. Grassroots politics 101. But it takes a lot of work, a lot of organisation, and a lot of people - and a lot of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 1 hour ago, Keith Houchen said: Lib Dem’s will probably do better too, despite Davey trying to have his “Johnson stuck on a zip wire” moment at every turn! We've got weeks of this left. Bungee jump in pub car park next please Ed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 I mean, I don't blame him. When you look at how people fell for BJ's bullshit, it makes as much sense as anything that's going on at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 36 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: We've got weeks of this left. Bungee jump in pub car park next please Ed! Oh man, there’s a Taskmaster series in getting him to do stupid shit in this, isn’t there! Throwing a kettle over a pub would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merzbow Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 40 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: We've got weeks of this left. Bungee jump in pub car park next please Ed! Jeez, I don't particularly like him either but I don't want to to be Edmonds'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 3 hours ago, Dead Mike said: We've got weeks of this left. Bungee jump in pub car park next please Ed! I happened to be watching the BBC News Channel when this happened. They'd just done the lead story at the top of the hour on the Labour manifesto launch and were meant to be doing more studio analysis of it but cut away to go live to this. The reporter spent the whole time explaining it was a publicity stunt to get journalists there and then explained the Lib Dem policy on support for carers of cancer patients. The stunt totally worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 First poll out with Reform ahead of the Conservatives. Just one poll, margin of error, etc, but prepare for a full-on Tory freakout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members FLips Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 (edited) Virtually more of the same from tonight's 7 party debate, except now with some cards laid on the table from the manifestos. I came away with very little change in opinion. Tory Penny was embarrassingly bad, with yet again every answer starting with "Labour is going to tax you" and sometimes ending with the crowd laughing at her. I don't envy having to stand on a platform of 14 years of failure and getting blasted from 6 other people though. Labour Angela suffered worse this time around after the manifesto launch showed problems with the working out, and Labour's refusal to end the 2 child benefits cap is biting them in the arse. Her refusal to rule out any other tax cuts with the same lines Kier Starmer was trotting out "not in our manifesto" annoyed me to no end. Just be honest and say yes or no, some of the other parties had no issue doing that. I think SNP Stephen was more or about the same, despite some awkwardness about trying to hold Labour to task for the Gaza conflict and having to discuss a Scottish Referendum they'd lost before. He has a lot of conviction and is forward with his unpopular ideas but doesn't shy from them. Fair play. Lib Dem Daisy similarly was bang average again. Some OK answers, very middle of the road. Really wasn't a presence, though I do like Daisy Cooper and think she has a good head on her shoulders should she come into any sort of power. Green Carla seemed more confident on the mic and more convicted behind her ideas now the manifesto has launched. They're in a good position where they know they won't win any major seats so can just be there to basically say "this is how good you could have it but Tories and Labour hate you". Despite the strong manifesto from Labour, their people are just so off-putting to me that I think Green will still get my vote at the election. The two that impressed me the most tonight (for different reasons) were Reform and Plaid. It's an awful party but Farage is in his element in these and whether you like the answers or not, he gives them straight when other leaders don't. He was all over the Tories being behind him in the polls and stunned Penny with his "a vote for you now is a vote for Labour" line. Also backing the removal of the 2 child cap is a huge blow to Labour and Tory voters looking elsewhere. Rhun from Plaid was tonight's big winner for me though. He impressed me in the first debate and was even stronger here. Solid, confident answers, forward about taxes, and seems genuinely invested in his beliefs. Went after everyone just about when it came to holding them to account and giving questions. Really like him. Edited June 13 by FLips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 8 minutes ago, FLips said: . I don't envy having to stand on a platform…..and getting blasted from 6 other people though Vote Bacon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted June 13 Moderators Share Posted June 13 I like him, but I feel like Stephen Flynn would have a much harder time if any of the other panelists cared enough about Scotland to go after him. I'm curious to watch the Scottish debate actually to see the SNP 'in context' as it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 14 Author Share Posted June 14 9 hours ago, Keith Houchen said: Vote Bacon. New crisps, new danger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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