Rewatching WCW

[The Gaffer]

3 hours ago, Your Fight Site said:

Well, I’ve done it. I’ve rewatched WCW from the first Nitro, right up until the last, including Thunder and pay-per-views. It was kinda bittersweet watching in late-2000/early-2001 knowing that even though the on-screen and in-ring product was getting better, the arena and crowd sizes were dwindling and the end was nigh.

Topped it off by watching WrestleMania X-Seven, and then jumping straight to the May 28 Raw is War to watch the Invasion start, and going to watch that time period through.

Yeah I try not to let presentation affect my enjoyment too much, but by the end WCW live crowds were dreadful. I specifically remember the very serviceable Starrcade 2000 having next to no crowd reaction for anything since by then the arenas were just filled with much older fans or families who didn't want their kids watching Vince's alternate smut at that time. 

I have such a soft spot for WCW November 2000 onward. They rely a lot on enhancement talent, the Natural Born Thrillers, Disco Inferno in various guises etc but they really went back to a quite humbled "Look we're struggling here, here's a mostly logical, low key wrestling show" vibe. 

[Your Fight Site]

5 hours ago, Gay as FOOK said:

Yeah I try not to let presentation affect my enjoyment too much, but by the end WCW live crowds were dreadful. I specifically remember the very serviceable Starrcade 2000 having next to no crowd reaction for anything since by then the arenas were just filled with much older fans or families who didn't want their kids watching Vince's alternate smut at that time. 

I have such a soft spot for WCW November 2000 onward. They rely a lot on enhancement talent, the Natural Born Thrillers, Disco Inferno in various guises etc but they really went back to a quite humbled "Look we're struggling here, here's a mostly logical, low key wrestling show" vibe. 

Yeah. I like the Thrillers (with the exception of Mike Sanders). And I could watch Sean O’Haire’s Seanton Bomb all day. Such a thing of beauty.

He and Mark Jindrak also did a double hip toss from the floor, over the ropes and back into the ring. They did it for weeks on smaller guys like Kwee Wee, then one week they randomly hoisted Sting over the ropes.

I think my biggest bug bear in terms of presentation was, by mid-2000, they just started uses the same floor-length “TurnerVision” screen for every show: Nitro, Thunder, pay-per-views. It was all the same set-up, just with a different video looping in the background. Was such a shame, given how creative and impressive WCW sets were in the mid-to-late ‘90s.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Your Fight Site

[Browser Brady]

I see what you mean about the sets, it reeked of “we’ve just given up”.

 

1999 was a funny year for wcw , it seemed to start well (bar the finger poke of doom) and that they truly started to go downhill around May of that year. 
 

When was the last point when WCW could have been truly saved ? 

[The Gaffer]

I liked that set. No nonsense big screen. Their trons were admittedly always Windows Movie Maker level cringe though. 

I'll hold to the notion that WCW could have been saved so long as it had TV. It was deep enough in the red that it couldn't continue or go on hiatus without a deal lined up, but if one was you still had 2.0 - 2.5 nielsens watching Nitro every week. More than enough to produce a cost effective TV show and take it off the road for a bit. 

I think it would have probably looked even more TNA over time though. Even if it kept going part of me thinks the war just came to a natural end anyway. It was too far gone and audiences were probably fatigued from it without some kind of proper cross-promotional angles. The idea was to bring back all the big names one by one after Steiner sidelined them but with a vastly downsized promotion how many would eventually just go with Vince instead? 

So yeah, I think even if it did survive the oft-repeated internet comment of "Wow imagine if we still had WCW!" is probably not nearly as exciting as people would think. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Gay as FOOK

[CavemanLynn]

WCW by that stage had been reduced to WWE Raw-lite. I remember when we used to watch RAW and Smackdown off a mate's tape, then switch over to the DSF decoder to watch Nitro, and I remember seeing Bischoff and Russo in a ring with red ropes, a massive square tron surrounded by shiny scaffolding, and thinking, "This is just Raw, isn't it?" Add to that the attempt to make beloved WCW stalwarts heels, constant shooty bollocks, and crash TV that was already years past its prime, and the WCW people (now) fondly remember was all gone.

[air_raid]

23 hours ago, CavemanLynn said:

I remember seeing Bischoff and Russo in a ring with red ropes, a massive square tron surrounded by shiny scaffolding, and thinking, "This is just Raw, isn't it?" Add to that the attempt to make beloved WCW stalwarts heels, constant shooty bollocks, and crash TV that was already years past its prime, and the WCW people (now) fondly remember was all gone.

Ahhhhhhh, memories of him getting into TNA and sacking off the six-sided ring immediately. Imagine thinking a wrestling match is the same regardless of the shape of the ring, and not realizing you're stripping away some of the very identity of the show. From the guy who makes such a noise about "we couldn't be better so we tried to be different" re: early days of Nitro, that was one of the most short-sighted decisions I can recall.

On 3/15/2023 at 6:43 AM, Browser Brady said:

1999 was a funny year for wcw , it seemed to start well (bar the finger poke of doom) and that they truly started to go downhill around May of that year. 

When was the last point when WCW could have been truly saved ? 

There are two different questions here. Artistically speaking the Finger Poke Of Doom would have actually worked out fine if it had been executed properly, e.g. Goldberg starts with Scott Hall at Souled Out (as happened) and annihilates one of the nWo "elite" after another before finally getting to Hogan, winning the belt back and continuing to be the top babyface/franchise player everything was built around, as the WWF had done and would continue doing around Steve Austin. But it all fell to shit around Hogan flexing his creative muscle and wanting to work face, shitty stars aligning around the same time that Flair wanted to work heel again. That double turn was disastrous because ultimately, Southern rasslin' fans viewed Flair as a deity and Hogan as the enemy, and simply didn't want to watch Flair be the bad guy any more. Plus, a whole host of unnecessary shite that followed like Nash turning babyface and half the nWo being face and half heels, half a dozen other guys getting into title shots while Goldberg twiddled his thumbs... but I consider Uncensored to be the real disaster, not the nWo reformation. Well, apart from pissing off everyone who bought a ticket to the Georgia Dome expecting to see Bill get his title rematch and not getting a match at all.

However, the company was never going to be truly saved. Even when ratings and buyrates and merch sales decent, the wheels were already turning for the AOL Time Warner merger, which is what killed the company in reality. The show stayed on the air because Ted liked wrestling, and the decision makers involved after the merger didn't want wrestling on their networks. They'd have found an excuse to sell the company even if it had stayed profitable, whereas even when they were making tons of money Bischoff managed to spend even more because Turner were paying for it.

[simonworden]

WCW could have been "saved" until close to the end in my opinion. If it had got bought out and secured a TV deal. There were plenty of bright young cruisers on the horizon to come in such as Daniels, AJ etc. ECW would have gone out of business and potentially they could have swooped up RVD and other recognisable talent. 

It's questionable how well it would have performed though. The big guns were somewhat over exposed and after the cracking matches in WWF in 2000, their slower style wouldn't have competed well. Some more work on Booker T and possibly raising a few others up through the card might have done the job but I'm not sure who. Would anyone from the WWF have jumped? Maybe some attitude era midcarders but no way anyone remotely main event with the paydays.

Honestly I don't think Bischoff would have been able to keep it alive much longer. He would have probably moved it back to a soundstage or similar and reduced it down to a TV show only format. As we saw with TNA it wasn't the route to success. 

Finally with what doesn't happen if it survives I'm glad it didn't. We wouldn't have got some of the indy stars and promotions we got like ROH. Moments like Hogan/Rock and it could've affected the use of stars like Cena, Lesnar and Orton. 

[Dai]

1 hour ago, simonworden said:

WCW could have been "saved" until close to the end in my opinion. If it had got bought out and secured a TV deal. There were plenty of bright young cruisers on the horizon to come in such as Daniels, AJ etc. ECW would have gone out of business and potentially they could have swooped up RVD and other recognisable talent. 

It's questionable how well it would have performed though.

With your solution, its the complete opposite of questionable with regards to how it would perform. It would have been a monumental failure. Its been over 20 years since WCW folded, and I genuinely think in all these years since, saying Christopher Daniels and AJ Styles would be the solution to keep WCW afloat may be be the worst idea thats ever been pitched.

 

Quote

I'll hold to the notion that WCW could have been saved so long as it had TV. It was deep enough in the red that it couldn't continue or go on hiatus without a deal lined up, but if one was you still had 2.0 - 2.5 nielsens watching Nitro every week. More than enough to produce a cost effective TV show and take it off the road for a bit. 

People just saying "it needed TV" have just fallen into the web of bullshit that Bischoff and Russo have spouted in the last few decades. I havent got the figures, but Im fairly surely in 99 they lost millions of dollars, and in 2000 they lost tens of millions of dollars. Thats with a TV deal. No amount of TV money at the end is turning that around. The WCW we all think about could not possibly be saved, just check out these salaries from the year 2000, and tell me its a business that could have been saved:

Jeff Jarrett - 500k, Hugh Morris - 250k, Kidman - 300k, Bam Bam - 400k, Disco - 280k, Shane Douglas - 300k, Lance Storm - 380k

These are not even the big names from the year, yet theyre blowing insane amount of money on them, and as that spreadsheet shows, there were tonnes of jobbers on 100k+ a year too. It was clearly an unsustainable amount of cash being spent on talent.

[air_raid]

55 minutes ago, Dai said:

People just saying "it needed TV" have just fallen into the web of bullshit that Bischoff and Russo have spouted in the last few decades.

Yes. They had TV and still ran at a loss for most of their existence. When they were at their best creatively and in terms of ratings and PPV revenue, they ran very few domestic house shows that usually lost money, which is why they'd abandoned them to begin with and why they did again. The difference between the two companies was massive - the WWF was a successful wrestling company that had a TV product, WCW/Nitro was a TV show. As soon as it had to be held accountable to true measures of success e.g. a profit & loss account, it was sold and dissolved by the buyer because it was, in business terms, not viable to run. Turner made a loss on WCW because the losses could be absorbed by the rest of his empire, just like NXT has been ran at a loss by WWE. We shouldnt be asking how much longer WCW could have survived if X Y or Z had happened, we should be grateful it lasted as long as it did.

[simonworden]

3 hours ago, Dai said:

With your solution, its the complete opposite of questionable with regards to how it would perform. It would have been a monumental failure. Its been over 20 years since WCW folded, and I genuinely think in all these years since, saying Christopher Daniels and AJ Styles would be the solution to keep WCW afloat may be be the worst idea thats ever been pitched.

 

People just saying "it needed TV" have just fallen into the web of bullshit that Bischoff and Russo have spouted in the last few decades. I havent got the figures, but Im fairly surely in 99 they lost millions of dollars, and in 2000 they lost tens of millions of dollars. Thats with a TV deal. No amount of TV money at the end is turning that around. The WCW we all think about could not possibly be saved, just check out these salaries from the year 2000, and tell me its a business that could have been saved:

Jeff Jarrett - 500k, Hugh Morris - 250k, Kidman - 300k, Bam Bam - 400k, Disco - 280k, Shane Douglas - 300k, Lance Storm - 380k

These are not even the big names from the year, yet theyre blowing insane amount of money on them, and as that spreadsheet shows, there were tonnes of jobbers on 100k+ a year too. It was clearly an unsustainable amount of cash being spent on talent.

Thanks for the harsh 2005 forum like reply. Perhaps I didn't explain that bit well or you misunderstood. What I meant was they could have been a part of saving it. Not a big one but a part. It's undeniable part of WCWs success was the cruisers and there wasn't exactly a great division left in 2000. The names I mentione tore it up on the indies in 2002 onwards for some time. I was never saying they should be the focus or main event but perhaps...and just perhaps would have boosted some interest. As for the word questionable and how I used it, there honestly isn't a direct opposite in that context unless you have a time machine. 

 

[Dai]

20 hours ago, simonworden said:

Thanks for the harsh 2005 forum like reply. Perhaps I didn't explain that bit well or you misunderstood. What I meant was they could have been a part of saving it. Not a big one but a part. It's undeniable part of WCWs success was the cruisers and there wasn't exactly a great division left in 2000. The names I mentione tore it up on the indies in 2002 onwards for some time. I was never saying they should be the focus or main event but perhaps...and just perhaps would have boosted some interest. As for the word questionable and how I used it, there honestly isn't a direct opposite in that context unless you have a time machine. 

 

Christopher Daniels and AJ Styles in 2001 would have less than zero part in saving WCW. 'Tearing it up' in front of a few hundred fans in high school gyms in ROH around this time surely suggests how niche they were. Again, its the opposite of 'undeniable' about how the cruisers were a part of WCW success. Not a single person was buying a PPV to watch the cruisers in WCW. They were just fun to watch during this time, but the viewers were there because they wanted to see the big stars. Im not going to spend any more time on this, as every time I see the theory its blowing my mind with how ridiculous it is.

[simonworden]

9 minutes ago, Dai said:

Christopher Daniels and AJ Styles in 2001 would have less than zero part in saving WCW. 'Tearing it up' in front of a few hundred fans in high school gyms in ROH around this time surely suggests how niche they were. Again, its the opposite of 'undeniable' about how the cruisers were a part of WCW success. Not a single person was buying a PPV to watch the cruisers in WCW. They were just fun to watch during this time, but the viewers were there because they wanted to see the big stars. Im not going to spend any more time on this, as every time I see the theory its blowing my mind with how ridiculous it is.

Fair enough, I'm too old for silly forum arguments like this these days too but I definately have a different opinion on this but that's the beauty of wrestling and hypotheticals, we can all disagree, have a bit of fun and nobody will ever be right.

[LCJ]

From what I recall during early 2001, WCW as a product wasn’t actually that bad. The TV shows actually seemed more watchable and flowed much better than the previous couple of years and they were sorting themselves out. I know a lot of people don’t hold him in high regard these days but wasn’t John Laurinaitis basically the head booker during this time? I think the plan was to bring Rob Van Dam to WCW. Not sure if they’d have built the company around him but RVD’s presence on the roster would’ve benefitted WCW for sure. However, as has already been said, the losses had already been made and the damage was done. There was no way that AOL Time Warner wanted WCW around. Ted Turner no longer had the influence he once had in terms of the TV stations either so WCW was beyond being saved.

[Infinity Land]

23 minutes ago, LCJ said:

From what I recall during early 2001, WCW as a product wasn’t actually that bad. The TV shows actually seemed more watchable and flowed much better than the previous couple of years and they were sorting themselves out. I know a lot of people don’t hold him in high regard these days but wasn’t John Laurinaitis basically the head booker during this time? I think the plan was to bring Rob Van Dam to WCW. Not sure if they’d have built the company around him but RVD’s presence on the roster would’ve benefitted WCW for sure. However, as has already been said, the losses had already been made and the damage was done. There was no way that AOL Time Warner wanted WCW around. Ted Turner no longer had the influence he once had in terms of the TV stations either so WCW was beyond being saved.

WWF were looking at RVD. Think its safe to say he was trying to get the best possible deal at the time as the hottest free agent out there. Rhyno was snapped up before the last Nitro. I don't there's a guarantee that a new look WCW would have gotten RVD even if they wanted him.

ECW guys like Corino and Kid Kash had been sniffing around WCW before it shut down. Kid Kash even getting a TV appearance on Thunder. 'Big Bang' era WCW would have felt like a World Wrestling All-Stars/Asylum era TNA hybrid I reckon. Not the greatest TV product. 

 

[air_raid]

One that was on all the NEWZ sites right before the buy out was that Sabu was definitely on the way in, don't recall anything about RVD.

3 hours ago, Dai said:

Again, its the opposite of 'undeniable' about how the cruisers were a part of WCW success.

Really? "A part" is fairly innocuous - out of Bischoff's own mouth they really went hard for "different" to the WWF and the smorgasbord of different styles you could see on Nitro WAS a big factor in Nitro becoming compulsive viewing for myself and the possibly hundreds of fellow fans I've conversed with online and at shows in the intervening 20 years. On the same show you could see tight technical wrestling from Dean Malenko, Steven Regal etc, breakneck lucha from Rey, Psicosis and so on, hefty lads like the Faces Of Fear and the Steiners clubbering the shit out of each other, and a main event full of some of the top stars of the industry from the last ten years. Nobody's saying Juvi vs Kidman was going on last at Starrcade, but I always thought the cruiserweight division being a part of what made the show so unmissable and successful for the best part of two years was undeniable, until I read it denied in this thread.