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The Jeffrey Epstein case !!


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1 hour ago, Chest Rockwell said:

@Tamura I hope you can see the difference between this post here and me just saying it's not implausible that those implicated in the scandal may have between them managed to come up with the means to off the guy.

 

Edit - also the difference between me and Alex Jones (or hopefully just one of the many differences) is he was spouting that shit from a platform, where as I am posting in a closed community here.

Very quickly read this and thought why on earth is Aled Jones been discussed?

Disappointed. 

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Kenny Omega wasn't called The Cleaner for nothing, I think you're onto something here.

I would like to hear from Dynamite Duane. 

Why do you need a conspiracy about somebody murdering him?  It's much more plausible that a few people were paid off to look the other way whilst he took his own life.   Even the fact he was able to k

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11 hours ago, Richard said:

Certainly more plausible than daft theories that it was the Aryan brotherhood.


Firstly, I never suggested the Aryan Brotherhood would be the instigators of the plot. However the fact remains, in the absence of "local assets" (that's Mossad hitmen in the relevant federal prison in layman's terms) it's highly likely the hit would be sub-contracted to a prison gang capable of doing it, such as the Aryan Brotherhood. Who did New York mafioso turn to when he wanted an inmate at another prison killed? Why, the Aryan Brotherhood.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12321039/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/witness-supremacists-plotted-avenge-gotti/

 

10 hours ago, Chest Rockwell said:

@Tamura I hope you can see the difference between this post here and me just saying it's not implausible that those implicated in the scandal may have between them managed to come up with the means to off the guy.

 

Edit - also the difference between me and Alex Jones (or hopefully just one of the many differences) is he was spouting that shit from a platform, where as I am posting in a closed community here.


It's my fault for not being clearer when I was speaking in general terms about conspiracy theories, as opposed to about this specific situation. Within days of any event random people on the other side of the world will have posted blogs or videos or podcasts claiming the latest mass shooting is a false flag, when they weren't there, haven't interviewed witnesses, don't have access to forensic evidence or have any insight other than because it must have been a false flag there's a conspiracy behind it. 

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9 hours ago, SuperBacon said:

Very quickly read this and thought why on earth is Aled Jones been discussed?

Disappointed. 

Walking in the Aryan?

 

Sorry

Edited by mim731
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Why do you need a conspiracy about somebody murdering him?  It's much more plausible that a few people were paid off to look the other way whilst he took his own life.   Even the fact he was able to kill himself is, in these circumstances, extremely dodgy.  The US is capable of keeping prisoners alive for years in Guantanamo against their wishes, but a rich and well connected high profile prisoner like Epstein they can't?

The long and short is that he has evaded justice, denied his victims the catharsis of a trial and conviction, removed himself as a witness to others' crimes and pretty much cut the legs out from under the attempts to bring all this into the open.  You don't have to be a conspiracy nut to guess that there's a number of rich men out there breathing a lot easier now.

 

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39 minutes ago, Tamura said:

It's my fault for not being clearer when I was speaking in general terms about conspiracy theories, as opposed to about this specific situation. 

Keith managed to make a similar point very clear from the start. Probably because he spent less time rambling and trying to make shit jokes about Prince Andrew. 

There are lots of genuine point of dissuasion that you have been derailing for no reason. For instance, I just learned the prison was so understaffed that one of the guards was on his fifth overtime shift that week and other inmates would be used to help with suicide watch.  Why was he moved to such a dangerously underfunded prison when he is such a high profile case? The FBI must have spent a fortune investigating him, but couldn’t afford to provide any additional security to the prison? Why do prisons like this even exist?

The prison sounds like it was terribly run and it is mind blowing he was left with such low security. To the point this could even be intentional neglect 

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As far as I can tell, the options are;

  1. The prison is badly run, so a potentially suicidal prisoner didn't receive the attention that would ordinarily be expected. As dodgy as the situation is, I would lean toward this being the most likely - never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by cock-up, and it's not exactly a stretch to think that someone who has spent most of his life thinking he was effectively untouchable would turn to suicide when all of that crashes down around him.
  2. It was suicide aided by conscious neglect by the prison staff (either collectively, or individually), because Epstein was a high profile nonce, and they took a dislike to him. Even if it's not just because he's a nonce, given that both sides of the political spectrum are using Epstein to try and tar the other - the right connecting him to the Clintons, the Democrats connecting him to Trump - there's the possibility that a personal political motivation was at play.
  3. He was murdered in prison, either by a guard or another prisoner, most likely for being a high profile nonce.
  4. He was murdered in prison at the command of a powerful political figure, because he might have snitched on them.

None of them seem necessarily unlikely, and I'd be more inclined to believe the conspiracy here than in most cases, but it would still probably be the least likely eventuality for my money.

What I don't like is the rhetoric that, without Epstein, any case against other powerful men just collapses. We still have credible victim testimony. There's still, presumably, mountains of evidence left behind in Epstein's estate. No one should be just shrugging and going, "oh well, I guess they all just get away with it now" as if a millionaire nonce was their only hope.

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9 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

And yet in all that, they haven't had a successful suicide there in over 20 years.

He must have really wanted to kill himself since he had such an awful time in prison the last time he was convicted of molestation. 36 girls as young as 14 and he got 13 months in prison. He was allowed to go to work six days a week. Must have really effected him I suppose 

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1 minute ago, BomberPat said:

neverÔĽŅ ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by cock-upÔĽŅ

I have a problem with this adage. It makes sense when you talk about an intricate web of conspiracy but this is one that would only really need a couple points of failure. I can't imagine buying off an underpaid warden or guard in an understaffed prison would require that much risk or exposure.

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9 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

I have a problem with this adage. It makes sense when you talk about an intricate web of conspiracy but this is one that would only really need a couple points of failure. I can't imagine buying off an underpaid warden or guard in an understaffed prison would require that much risk or exposure.

Aye, that's why I would be more inclined to believe this conspiracy than most - conspiracies usually fall down on the number of people that would have to be involved, whereas this could likely be managed by a small group; one person paying off a guard through sufficient back channels as to make it difficult to trace. I still think it's the least likely eventuality, but it's not a vast difference.

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2 hours ago, BomberPat said:

As far as I can tell, the options are;

  1. The prison is badly run, so a potentially suicidal prisoner didn't receive the attention that would ordinarily be expected. As dodgy as the situation is, I would lean toward this being the most likely - never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be explained by cock-up, and it's not exactly a stretch to think that someone who has spent most of his life thinking he was effectively untouchable would turn to suicide when all of that crashes down around him.
  2. It was suicide aided by conscious neglect by the prison staff (either collectively, or individually), because Epstein was a high profile nonce, and they took a dislike to him. Even if it's not just because he's a nonce, given that both sides of the political spectrum are using Epstein to try and tar the other - the right connecting him to the Clintons, the Democrats connecting him to Trump - there's the possibility that a personal political motivation was at play.
  3. He was murdered in prison, either by a guard or another prisoner, most likely for being a high profile nonce.
  4. He was murdered in prison at the command of a powerful political figure, because he might have snitched on them.

None of them seem necessarily unlikely, and I'd be more inclined to believe the conspiracy here than in most cases, but it would still probably be the least likely eventuality for my money.

What I don't like is the rhetoric that, without Epstein, any case against other powerful men just collapses. We still have credible victim testimony. There's still, presumably, mountains of evidence left behind in Epstein's estate. No one should be just shrugging and going, "oh well, I guess they all just get away with it now" as if a millionaire nonce was their only hope.

I think you've really undersold option 2 there. 

2. It was suicide aided by conscious neglect by the maybe one or two prison staff, ordered to do so or paid to do so by figures who were in the firing line from his testimony.

Forget disliking nonces, they get them in there all the time and they never get murdered.  That's the point of this facility.

I actually think this is the most likely option given the track record of the facility and the high profile of this case.  The "whoops we lost one, oh well" option actually seems LESS likely to me.

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But does the whole investigation magically disappear without his testimony? The FBI are still raiding his island. They'll still check his hard drives, his vaults, his address books, his accounts, and still question witnesses, and corroborate victim testimony. This is a guy who kept hidden cameras and photographs of underage girls, a safe full of child porn CDs and decades old forged passports, and kept address books and documentation on practically everything - the idea that the magic bullet would be him testifying, rather than the mountains of evidence a search of his properties will bring up, seems naive. 

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55 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

But does the whole investigation magically disappear without his testimony?

No, but not having the primary figure in all of this able to walk into a court room and potentially implicate people certainly doesn't help it, does it? We don't know what his state of mind was, he could very well have been in a place where he had nothing to lose and could have believed that purging himself of the secrets and those connected to the case was some form of soul-saving exercise.

Those people with a lot to lose wouldn't risk that happening. Their lawyers can fight against address books, accounts and even victim testimony. Having Epstein stand in court and say "yeah, so and so was involved" is a game changer.

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5 hours ago, Loki said:

I think you've really undersold option 2 there. 

2. It was suicide aided by conscious neglect by the maybe one or two prison staff, ordered to do so or paid to do so by figures who were in the firing line from his testimony.

Forget disliking nonces, they get them in there all the time and they never get murdered.  That's the point of this facility.

I actually think this is the most likely option given the track record of the facility and the high profile of this case.  The "whoops we lost one, oh well" option actually seems LESS likely to me.

This is the theory I’m leaning most towards at the moment. The guards would know if anything happened to Epstein there would be a shit storm to follow it. If they wanted justice against nonces, then this is a scenario where taking it into their own hands is the least productive thing they can do. Taking orders or pay offs to intentionally neglect him is entirely possible 

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Just read this article which has several noteworthy things worth paying attention to

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/jeffrey-epstein-death-suicide-cctv-video-footage-fbi-child-sex-trafficking-a9080111.html

Lawyers for Epstein and his family had questioned Sampson's ruling of suicide and the thoroughness of the investigation into Epstein's death.

"The defence team fully intends to conduct its own independent and complete investigation into the circumstances and cause of Epstein's death including if necessary legal action to view the pivotal videos - if they exist as they should - of the area proximate to Epstein's cell during the time period leading to his death," the lawyers said in a 16 August statement. "We are not satisfied with the conclusions of the medical examiner."

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