VeganMania

[Hannibal Scorch]

7 hours ago, UK Kat Von D said:

 

I understand it must be a very personal subject so obviously you don’t need to answer, but have you only looked at and discussed dietary effects or have you atctually tried them out in practice? The PETA article I posted only says it could help

The problem is that, sometimes  in Autism people can have a very limited diet (the beige diet). He practically lives on nuggets, potato and carrot waffles, fruit, bread and cereal. He only has milk sometimes on Cereal but he won’t try any milk alternatives (he can tell once it is in front of him). His diet is very low in dairy is what I’m saying anyway.

The problem is people make claims about things that cause Autism and it sends people nuts. Look into Andrew Wakefield. He was the person who said that the MMR injection gave people Autism. This was due to him having patented his own alternative a few months before. He was eventually found out, stripped of his medical qualifications and fled the UK. Now one of his biggest supports is Trump and he still sprouting these lies which is why Anti Vaxers is such a thing. 

PETA have used Autism as a reason to go dairy free, but with no evidence to back the claims up. It gives people force hope. Just explain why dairy is cruel. Don’t make shit up. Maybe I’m letting the issue upset me more because I’m so close to it. 

 

[Really Big Shoe]

I don’t really understand how anyone could argue that meat isn’t murder though.

Me neither but Its the way Peta go about getting the message across.  They are on the extreme level of the scale and it comes across more so of them demanding people not to eat meat than a personal choice which it of course should be. Plus a lot of cattle is sadly just bred for the purpose of consumption so if no one ate meat they'd be a considerable lot less cattle being bred and there's the argument that using cattle for farming is cruel & inhumane also, so there's a multitude of things which can be debated.

As for the milk causing autism debate https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/the-bad-science-behind-petas-claim-that-milk-might-cause-autism/371751/

Petas ad campaign was play on the "Got milk?" ads were in real bad taste. Rightfully they've stopped the campaign now. 

A science paper on the subject

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1750946709001111

If PETA did more detailed research and lessened up on the aggressive style points they don't just get across but shove in your face it would do them a better service. 

In the US, cows milk is injected with rBGH (growth hormone) and IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor)

http://americannutritionassociation.org/toolsandresources/milk-america’s-health-problem

But they are banned in Europe and Canada. Could those two things cause detrimental health side effects?. But any study would be flawed if you incorporated cows milk from Canada and Europe into any scientific study since farmers are banned from including it and rightly so. 

[UK Kat Von D]

2 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

PETA have used Autism as a reason to go dairy free, but with no evidence to back the claims up. It gives people force hope. Just explain why dairy is cruel. Don’t make shit up. Maybe I’m letting the issue upset me more because I’m so close to it. 

 

Personally I think they were fair, but I’m not the one in your shoes and can’t comprehend how campaigns like that must play with your emotions. 

[UK Kat Von D]

1 hour ago, Really Big Shoe said:

 

 

Me neither but Its the way Peta go about getting the message across.  They are on the extreme level of the scale and it comes across more so of them demanding people not to eat meat than a personal choice which it of course should be. Plus a lot of cattle is sadly just bred for the purpose of consumption so if no one ate meat they'd be a considerable lot less cattle being bred and there's the argument that using cattle for farming is cruel & inhumane also, so there's a multitude of things which can be debated.

The meat industry are the ones on the extreme side, they slaughter 15 billion sentient beings a year. That is extreme. They are on the extreme level, not the people who are trying to change attitudes.

The meat industry blatantly lie to consumers. The parade cows and sheep in fields so the general public think that’s what they are eating. It isn’t, the meat and dairy industry lie to you. Here is an article which explains a bit about how free range and cage free are basically just lies

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/think-you-know-free-range-and-cage-free-chicken-think-again/

Here is a website that shows in real time how many animals are being killed. 

http://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter/

It has a bunch of documentaries on the bottom, if you can watch them all you’d turn Vegan. Doubt you will though, because you want to eat meat and will happily ignore any facts to serve yourself.

[Hannibal Scorch]

10 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

Personally I think they were fair, but I’m not the one in your shoes and can’t comprehend how campaigns like that must play with your emotions. 

You honestly can't just make a claim based on a small trial in a country where dairy is made differently, as mentioned in @Really Big Shoe's post above. You see on Facebook groups all the time, a gluten free diet made my autism better or switching my son to lactofree cured his Autism. 1 - It doesn't work like that 2 - Most of these changes are coincidental (see the MMR/Autism link again. "He was fine, but 2 days after the jab, he was diagnosed with Autism". 

At best it gives people a false hope that it may help (and there are obviously health benefits, not Autistic benefits), at worse claims like this are normally people trying to take your money. There are a few big Autism programs in america who offer cures or vast improvements using a system they developed. My wife was so desperate to believe she was ready to borrow money just so we could start this behavioral program. It was only when I started looking into it more I realised it's a glorified pyramid scheme which is funded by donations from rich folk as tax write offs.

The other problem here is Autism is a HUGE spectrum. So to give Peta the benefit of the doubt, maybe cutting hormone injected (in America) dairy out of a diet MAY help a very very small number of people on the low end of the spectrum. But for the vast majority it will make SFA difference  

[BomberPat]

The Autism stuff was abhorrent. It's (knowingly) anti-scientific bullshit, and borderline demonising autistic people to make that point - I see it as no different to anti-vaxxers. 

[UK Kat Von D]

Well the article openly says that actual research needs to be done, and that it’s personal testimonies from idividuals. Totally understand how those testimonies could be written based on hope or be coincidental. It is a topic that they shouldn’t have touched  

[Hannibal Scorch]

44 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

Well the article openly says that actual research needs to be done, and that it’s personal testimonies from idividuals. Totally understand how those testimonies could be written based on hope or be coincidental. It is a topic that they shouldn’t have touched  

it was purely designed to cause a reaction, again a tactic they have used for years. This one caused a more negative reaction then normal. It was proper clickbait because the tweet was hinting at one thing, and as you point out, the article suggested something else in it's meaning. 

[BomberPat]

Not only that, but people are hard-wired to trust anecdotal evidence. It's grossly irresponsible to knowingly present personal testimonies in lieu of any real data, and doubly so with a clickbait-y headline that suggests the facts are settled. 

Because 99% of people won't look into any eventual research, they'll remember the headline, and they'll have vague recollections of one or two stories from parents. 

It gives false hope to parents, it feeds into an already fatally irresponsible anti-science movement (I guarantee you this will have got more traction from anti-vaccine types than from vegans or anyone remotely considering changing their diet), and generally makes my blood boil. 

[Keith Houchen]

1 hour ago, UK Kat Von D said:

The meat industry are the ones on the extreme side, they slaughter 15 billion sentient beings a year. That is extreme. They are on the extreme level, not the people who are trying to change attitudes.

There was one of those "Breakfast TV debates" with a farmer and a vegan campaigner a few months back.  The farmer started by saying how they have school days where the kids see every aspect of his farming to show how cruelty free it is.  The campaigner repeatedly asked "Do you show them inside the slaughterhouse".

Spoiler - no he didn't.

[UK Kat Von D]

40 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

There was one of those "Breakfast TV debates" with a farmer and a vegan campaigner a few months back.  The farmer started by saying how they have school days where the kids see every aspect of his farming to show how cruelty free it is.  The campaigner repeatedly asked "Do you show them inside the slaughterhouse".

Spoiler - no he didn't.

It’s also just blatant misleading children, because those farm animals aren’t what they get when their parents take them to McDonalds. Considering most children are not eating that type of meat it’s disgusting to present it as such to them.

The schools should really be taking them to places like this 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/17/uk-has-nearly-800-livestock-mega-farms-investigation-reveals

 

[David]

Here's the thing, most people know how their meat is produced, and anti-meat organisations pretending that all meat-eaters are just uneducated buffoons who think their meat comes from animals who spend their lives frolicking in open fields is wrong.

I've never heard from anyone who doesn't know that McDonalds and other fast food restaurants don't run shady practices to maintain the supply of product they need. People know.

Here's the kicker. Most people don't give a shit. They don't think about it too much. It's relatively cheap, it tastes nice, and it's convenient.

The same way as we all know that the brands we wear exploit people on the other side of the world to produce the goods we all wear. Again, most people don't really give a shit.

My mate Dan gets off his face every weekend on drugs that find their way to his nose via a long line of people who are exploited, killed, threatened, bribed, and treated terribly.

Do you think he gives a shit at 1am down the club when the tunes are "bangin" and he wants to look cool in front of his equally cuntish friends? Of course not. It's all about "the moment" and "setting himself free" or some other ridiculous bullshit.

I'm a meat-eater. I know the kind of thing that's done to provide me with the chicken on my plate. Do I particularly like it? Not really, but in all honesty it doesn't really bother me. It's life, it's how it goes.

[Accident Prone]

11 minutes ago, David said:

Here's the thing, most people know how their meat is produced, and anti-meat organisations pretending that all meat-eaters are just uneducated buffoons who think their meat comes from animals who spend their lives frolicking in open fields is wrong.

I've never heard from anyone who doesn't know that McDonalds and other fast food restaurants don't run shady practices to maintain the supply of product they need. People know.

Here's the kicker. Most people don't give a shit. They don't think about it too much. It's relatively cheap, it tastes nice, and it's convenient.

I'm a meat-eater. I know the kind of thing that's done to provide me with the chicken on my plate. Do I particularly like it? Not really, but in all honesty it doesn't really bother me. It's life, it's how it goes.

Speaking as an omnivore, this is the worst defense to put forward regarding the way animals and the subsequent product are handled. You're making the hard line between the two camps worse with drivel like this.

Do I have a defense? No. But I try to do enough in my day-to-day life to offset it. Saying "No one gives a fuck" is preposterous.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Accident Prone

[Sphinx]

I can safely say I've never taken drugs to look cool and have genuinely enjoyed music to a wonderful level on them. You sound like Partridge.

I think showing the realities of the animals' lives and how they're killed is very important rather than assuming everyone knows and they've made their decision. Speaking for myself, I was aware of the slaughterhouses but I'd use my imagination to think of it if I was or see cartoons depicting it. Seeing the actual thing is far more visceral and creates much more of an emotional response. And there's no reason we should misinform and make out the animals are treated better than they are - how can misinforming be defended?

[David]

9 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

Speaking as an omnivore, this is worst defense to put forward regarding the way animals and the subsequent by-product are handled. You're making the hard line between the two camps worse with drivel like this.

Do I have a defense? No. But I try to do enough in my day-to-day life to offset it. Saying "No one gives a fuck" is preposterous.

What I said wasn't a defence. I'm not defending anything, I'm simply saying it as I see it. 

Vegans are right for the most part, it is murder, and the animals don't get treated well. Meat eaters who are trying to "do enough in their day to day life to offset it" are simply trying to eradicate their own guilt.

If the way animals are treated bothered people, they wouldn't eat them. They wouldn't help finance and support an industry that carries out these acts.

But hey, if trying to square it in their own minds as them somehow not being "quite as bad" as all that helps meat eaters sleep at night then fair play. 

I just accept it for what it is. I like meat, and I know exactly how its produced. As do most people. Let's give some credit here.

Quote

I can safely say I've never taken drugs to look cool and have genuinely enjoyed music to a wonderful level on them. You sound like Partridge.

My point is, people take drugs knowing full well the methods used by those who provide them. They know that there's some real nasty shit that goes on in that trade, where people are murdered and exploited. 

But they still take them. They still help support an entire industry that is built on absolute horror. 

Why? Because they "genuinely enjoy music to a wonderful level on them," and that's more important than worrying about who's paid the price to get the drugs into their hands.

The same responsibility should be applied to meat eaters. They know what goes on to provide them with their food. This isn't the dark ages, everyone has seen at least one or two of these videos and documentaries nowadays. We know that it isn't pretty, and it's usually downright cruel.

But we still eat the meat anyway. 

Edited October 3, 2018 by David