theringmaster Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 10 hours ago, Lord-Mountevans said: Because when they work on the camps it is regarded as children's entertainment, hence the sale of foam fingers/masks etc.I can see the likes of Butlins pulling the plug on wrestling TBH. It somehow survived the ASW "racist" scandal, when they had complaints about the racial stereotyping of a Sheik character on one of their camp shows. The back stabbing nature of wrestling suggests to me that Butlins will have been tipped off about these recent allegations, as there is always jealousy and resentment over contracts and venues. Only time will tell... Yep, like some BritWrest shows have already been cancelled by the venue. And why is all this? because a load of fans won't let it drop on social media.  What has happened is terrible but I think people (aka fans) need to have a reality check here a little. This isn't a Jimmy Saville/Harvey Weinsten scale thing, it's a few individuals who have been named, shamed,black balled and where possible questioned by the authorities and it is now in their hands. I agree CRB checks if you are a trainer or performer would be a wise idea if you were in the industry but the idea 'it should the law' is getting a bit silly. I even saw a blog post doing the rounds demanding that at every show there is a designated 'safe place' for fans to go to if they feel 'threatened', I have been to HUNDREDS of shows in my life from happy clappy family friendly to extreme adult shows and I have never felt threatened, nor have i ever known anybody feel unsafe. Then you get people like Hope Brookes going on a crusade, when Hope Brookes is on a moral crusade you know things are getting out of hand.  Fans need to let it drop because they are going to ruin the business if they don't. Not every wrestler/promotion needs to make a statement, no promotion with any sense of moral standards are going to book these guys again.  I do not agree, excuse, defend any kind of sexual act and may those horrible b*stards get what is coming to them but the whole industry shouldn't have to suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinbobs Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, theringmaster said: Yep, like some BritWrest shows have already been cancelled by the venue. And why is all this? because a load of fans won't let it drop on social media.  What has happened is terrible but I think people (aka fans) need to have a reality check here a little. This isn't a Jimmy Saville/Harvey Weinsten scale thing, it's a few individuals who have been named, shamed,black balled and where possible questioned by the authorities and it is now in their hands. I agree CRB checks if you are a trainer or performer would be a wise idea if you were in the industry but the idea 'it should the law' is getting a bit silly. I even saw a blog post doing the rounds demanding that at every show there is a designated 'safe place' for fans to go to if they feel 'threatened', I have been to HUNDREDS of shows in my life from happy clappy family friendly to extreme adult shows and I have never felt threatened, nor have i ever known anybody feel unsafe. Then you get people like Hope Brookes going on a crusade, when Hope Brookes is on a moral crusade you know things are getting out of hand.  Fans need to let it drop because they are going to ruin the business if they don't. Not every wrestler/promotion needs to make a statement, no promotion with any sense of moral standards are going to book these guys again.  I do not agree, excuse, defend any kind of sexual act and may those horrible b*stards get what is coming to them but the whole industry shouldn't have to suffer. Don't blame the fans for the actions of other people. Especially for the âgood of the buisnessâ the âbuisnessâ owes nothing to the fans, theyâre the reason it exists. And the fans have every right to question the source which it funds. I want to know who these people are so my money doesnât line their pockets. for people having shows cancelled etc because of this, let it be a lesson. Proper registrations, proper accountability. And maybe next time do something about it early when the rumour mill starts to fly. I was around the âbuisnessâ in mid thousands and it was rampant then and nobody gave a blind bit of notice and now those people walk amongst us with absolutely no fear of reprisal and a few quid in their pocket. Donât tell me a lot of these new school promoters and workers arenât fully aware of whatâs been taking place, and revelling in the storyâs after hours. Iâve been to many a catch up âsocialâ over the years. (Disclaimer, not once did anyone ever cop to a rape, but the Edler stories were doing the rumor mill LONG LONG ago and this was between people spanning many companies from across the UK. People knew.) Wrasslers & promoters are degenerates. Some harmless. Some like a thumb in the bum during a rumble. Some like to get rapey because their parents never loved them. Lets seperate those ones out.  EDIT - I Spelt Business wrong TWICE in this post, it's been an hour and not one person has corrected me. The UKFF has changed. You used to get banned for stuff like that. Edited February 8, 2018 by robinbobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Kaz Hayashi Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, theringmaster said: What has happened is terrible but I think people (aka fans) need to have a reality check here a little. This isn't a Jimmy Saville/Harvey Weinsten scale thing What are you on about? Accusations of child abuse, and general sexual abuse have been made. How is that not on the same scale as others committing the same crime? This is arguably worse due to the fact it wonât gain the same media coverage, meaning less people will likely come forward and speak out, and less nasty fuckers will be brought to justice. Edit - Iâve just read the rest of your post again... youâre a muppet. Edited February 8, 2018 by Kaz Hayashi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 44 minutes ago, theringmaster said:  I agree CRB checks if you are a trainer or performer would be a wise idea if you were in the industry but the idea 'it should the law' is getting a bit silly. Really? You are wrong in just about every way. If a trainer is working with anyone under 18 they should be DBS'd, and the same goes for any wrestler who comes in to do some training. I don't think it's case of "It should be law" I'd imagine it already is but it is ignored for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 53 minutes ago, robinbobs said: Don't blame the fans for the actions of other people. Especially for the âgood of the buisnessâ the âbuisnessâ owes nothing to the fans, theyâre the reason it exists. And the fans have every right to question the source which it funds. I want to know who these people are so my money doesnât line their pockets. for people having shows cancelled etc because of this, let it be a lesson. Proper registrations, proper accountability. And maybe next time do something about it early when the rumour mill starts to fly. I was around the âbuisnessâ in mid thousands and it was rampant then and nobody gave a blind bit of notice and now those people walk amongst us with absolutely no fear of reprisal and a few quid in their pocket. Donât tell me a lot of these new school promoters and workers arenât fully aware of whatâs been taking place, and revelling in the storyâs after hours. Iâve been to many a catch up âsocialâ over the years. (Disclaimer, not once did anyone ever cop to a rape, but the Edler stories were doing the rumor mill LONG LONG ago and this was between people spanning many companies from across the UK. People knew.) Wrasslers & promoters are degenerates. Some harmless. Some like a thumb in the bum during a rumble. Some like to get rapey because their parents never loved them. Lets seperate those ones out. Quoted for truth. (I didn't know about the Edler stuff, but there were plenty other rumours doing the rounds at the time.) theringmaster - calling for people to "let it drop", that's exactly the point of what's going on! It's because people let it drop all the time that it's come to a head like this. And if the wrestlers or promoters won't help fix the problem, or are themselves the problem, then don't lambast the fans for doing their bit - as robinbobs says, they don't owe anything to the business, and they don't want to see their money in the pockets of nonces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, theringmaster said:  I even saw a blog post doing the rounds demanding that at every show there is a designated 'safe place' for fans to go to if they feel 'threatened', I have been to HUNDREDS of shows in my life from happy clappy family friendly to extreme adult shows and I have never felt threatened, nor have i ever known anybody feel unsafe. Whereas I've known my ex-girlfriend to be stopped in the queue for a family friendly show and asked "which wrestler are you here to have sex with?". I know several female fans that have had worse experiences than that, and know very few female wrestlers that haven't experienced worse still at some point in their career. This might be a radical concept, but your experience of shows as a male fan might not be universal.  Point is, you can talk about "named, shamed and blackballed", but this is an industry built on lies and secrecy. As others said, a lot of the shit that has come out has been, at best, an open secret. That is the problem - that we have a business that, by its very nature, covers up, closes rank and protects its own, and it's only when someone is publicly "named and shamed" that anyone tries to take action.  I don't know how things work for the Butlins shows etc.; I can't imagine that all the performers are DBS checked, but I assume that someone at a management/promotion level has to be. I mostly work family-friendly hotel shows, and part of our contract/insurance for those shows is that the guys signing the contract need to have a clean background check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theringmaster Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, robinbobs said:  for people having shows cancelled etc because of this, let it be a lesson. Proper registrations, proper accountability. And maybe next time do something about it early when the rumour mill starts to fly. I was around the âbuisnessâ in mid thousands and it was rampant then and nobody gave a blind bit of notice and now those people walk amongst us with absolutely no fear of reprisal and a few quid in their pocket. Donât tell me a lot of these new school promoters and workers arenât fully aware of whatâs been taking place, and revelling in the storyâs after hours. Iâve been to many a catch up âsocialâ over the years. (Disclaimer, not once did anyone ever cop to a rape, but the Edler stories were doing the rumor mill LONG LONG ago and this was between people spanning many companies from across the UK. People knew.) Wrasslers & promoters are degenerates. Some harmless. Some like a thumb in the bum during a rumble. Some like to get rapey because their parents never loved them. Lets seperate those ones out. Proper registrations? Proper accountability? So explain these two to me.  Proper registration? So when promoters book guys they need to see run a criminal history check and have at least two forms of ID? That's not the way the business works or ever will work. Next you will be demanding to see evidence that the wages given to workers is declared to the tax man. Proper accountability? For what? If nobody in your promotion has been accused and if you were unaware of any such behaviour prior to accusation then how can you take accountability? "Lads this is nothing to do with us but we will hang our heads in shame whilst promotions who have had these workers on their shows continue to run shows".  And just because shows you were on were full of nonces who 'revelled' in stories after hours then that does not mean for one single second ALL shows are like this. That kind of attitude is the problem.  I agree lets out and get rid of the 'degenerates' but again why should everybody in the industry suffer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinbobs Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Carbomb said: Quoted for truth. (I didn't know about the Edler stuff, but there were plenty other rumours doing the rounds at the time.) theringmaster - calling for people to "let it drop", that's exactly the point of what's going on! It's because people let it drop all the time that it's come to a head like this. And if the wrestlers or promoters won't help fix the problem, or are themselves the problem, then don't lambast the fans for doing their bit - as robinbobs says, they don't owe anything to the business, and they don't want to see their money in the pockets of nonces. 3  16 minutes ago, theringmaster said: Proper registrations? Proper accountability? So explain these two to me.  Proper registration? So when promoters book guys they need to see run a criminal history check and have at least two forms of ID? That's not the way the business works or ever will work. Next you will be demanding to see evidence that the wages given to workers is declared to the tax man. Proper accountability? For what? If nobody in your promotion has been accused and if you were unaware of any such behaviour prior to accusation then how can you take accountability? "Lads this is nothing to do with us but we will hang our heads in shame whilst promotions who have had these workers on their shows continue to run shows".  And just because shows you were on were full of nonces who 'revelled' in stories after hours then that does not mean for one single second ALL shows are like this. That kind of attitude is the problem.  I agree lets out and get rid of the 'degenerates' but again why should everybody in the industry suffer? 6 To be honest, I'm concerned with the training facilities, to me it's not about the shows. The shows get cancelled and the brush gets tarnished, because of the complete and utter lack of safe guarding in those areas. And no, you're very correct, it might not seem fair. I bet you theres a promotion out there, who maybe broke away from a training school, cause they fell out with the trainer (probably because they figured he was a nonce) and now there shows are being cancelled because said nonce has been outed. Doesn't seem fair at all. But at the end of the day, these people still knew about these people, and those people did nothing to report them. out of fear, probably, I remember, like I said, back in mid thousands when we'd be told stories of Wrestler X having some sort of beef with Wrestler Y into a back of a car and doing something violent. And then we're expected to act on a rumor we heard, report them to the police? And face the repercussions? I don't know what it's like today, but stories travel. Like I said, I heard the Edler stories maybe a year ago from someone still in wrestling in a pub, those rumors were there. Why was he allowed to continue on? like all the others? If it's fear, that needs to be addressed. If it was laziness, then everyone deserves a shot in the arm. Edited February 8, 2018 by robinbobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 In no sense is "everybody in the industry" suffering. People are just calling for the industry to have some form of regulation so that this shit can be dealt with as and when it arises, not months or years after the fact when a victim plucks up the courage to talk about it on social media, when chances are it was an open secret within the industry the entire fucking time. It's not rocket science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Kaz Hayashi Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 At this rate weâll only have 1 under card  and a 5 man battle royal. #thinkofthebusiness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 The attitude that's the problem is yours. You make out that having a DBS and proper accountability is some kind of "Suffering" when all it is is common human decency which you don't seem to have any of. Paramedics have a DBS. Teachers have a DBS. Child minders have a DBS, but Johnny Kickpadz Wrestling trainer he's fine, he doesn't need a DBS because it's unfair to him. Its not his fault that other trainer turned out to be a kiddy fiddler.  Then him and the wrestler Frankie Flipbump are going to run a week long wrestling camp in the school holidays. They are going to spend all day teaching 14-18 year old kids how to wrestle. Its ok though it's not like there is any close physical contact in wrestling.  If you can't get it through your thick skull that anyone who teaches needs to be properly DBS'd then there is actually something mentally wrong with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theringmaster Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 48 minutes ago, robinbobs said:  To be honest, I'm concerned with the training facilities, to me it's not about the shows. The shows get cancelled and the brush gets tarnished, because of the complete and utter lack of safe guarding in those areas. And no, you're very correct, it might not seem fair. I bet you theres a promotion out there, who maybe broke away from a training school, cause they fell out with the trainer (probably because they figured he was a nonce) and now there shows are being cancelled because said nonce has been outed. Doesn't seem fair at all. But at the end of the day, these people still knew about these people, and those people did nothing to report them. out of fear, probably, I remember, like I said, back in mid thousands when we'd be told stories of Wrestler X having some sort of beef with Wrestler Y into a back of a car and doing something violent. And then we're expected to act on a rumor we heard, report them to the police? And face the repercussions? I don't know what it's like today, but stories travel. Like I said, I heard the Edler stories maybe a year ago from someone still in wrestling in a pub, those rumors were there. Why was he allowed to continue on? like all the others? If it's fear, that needs to be addressed. If it was laziness, then everyone deserves a shot in the arm. I 100% agree training schools should get crb'ed checked, like i said earlier if i was a trainer I would get one just because it's a wise decision to make for your business. For what it's worth I don't think under 16's should be doing training anyway, if nothing else on the grounds their bodies have not yet fully developed .  I think this has been kinda addressed but are you supposed to go to the police with every 'tale' you heard? I live in a small village and their are always stories about local wierdos doing the rounds but are you going to run to the authorities on every bit of gossip? And like it's been said what is is stopping a rival promotion from doing something to taint another? The idea of having a go at workers of days gone by for not saying anything is harsh, if somebody would have spoken up say 10 years ago about a 'tale' I very much dealt the police would have pursued it and he would have got a kick in and been black balled. Sad but true. All we can do is to make sure that going forward anything remotely relating to sexual abuse is reported and back to my original point, if workers and promotions have pledged this then why keep harking on about it on social media? 37 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: The attitude that's the problem is yours. You make out that having a DBS and proper accountability is some kind of "Suffering" when all it is is common human decency which you don't seem to have any of. Paramedics have a DBS. Teachers have a DBS. Child minders have a DBS, but Johnny Kickpadz Wrestling trainer he's fine, he doesn't need a DBS because it's unfair to him. Its not his fault that other trainer turned out to be a kiddy fiddler.  Then him and the wrestler Frankie Flipbump are going to run a week long wrestling camp in the school holidays. They are going to spend all day teaching 14-18 year old kids how to wrestle. Its ok though it's not like there is any close physical contact in wrestling.  If you can't get it through your thick skull that anyone who teaches needs to be properly DBS'd then there is actually something mentally wrong with you. At no point have a i said that trainer's shouldn't have a CRB check, at no point have i said schools shouldn't be a safe environment.  I have referenced shows and how the business works, not training schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Your Fight Site Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, theringmaster said: I have never felt threatened, nor have i ever known anybody feel unsafe. Letâs drop it, then. Itâs clearly bollocks because youâve not personally experienced anything first- or second-hand If people are in a position of trust and/or physical contact with children and young, vulnerable adults, then they should be held to the same professional standard, regardless of what pursuit it is. Why should professional wrestling get a pass? Because itâs ânot big enoughâ? Because itâs âalways been like thatâ? The latter is clearly the issue: itâs gone on and look whatâs happened: un-regulated trainers have been taken liberties and been appropriate with young and vulnerable people. Something needs to change. This isnât a case of making things âdifficultâ for âthe boysâ. Itâs about making sure young, vulnerable people are able to pursue their dream in a safe environment, with trainers who are there to teach in a professional manner and not with ulterior motives. And if professional wrestling held itself to the same standard as âreal worldâ pursuits, then maybe it might get taken a little bit more seriously too, instead of being thought of as âcarnyâ. How is any of these things a bad thing? Edited February 8, 2018 by Your Fight Site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Kaz Hayashi Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 Any daft bollock can call himself a promoter by hiring a ring and emailing a few lads and lasses on a forum asking them to work for a fiver. Any other daft bollock can wear a vest and pants, reply to that email saying âaye go on thenâ and call themselves a wrestler. If by bringing in tighter rules, licenses and regulation for promoters and wrestlers means that some of these knackers find themselves not performing in front of 8 people in a WMC on a Sunday afternoon... thatâs sound with me. More to the point, If that is the consequence of doing âsomethingâ to try and safeguard kids and potentially vulnerable people, again.. sound with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted February 8, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2018 The thing is @theringmaster that training schools are not separate from the rest of the business. I have been to loads of shows in the last 20 years and at pretty much all of them trainees would be helping to set the ring up and then if there was a rumble they would be in it. Wrestling is a shit business. It needs cleaning up. Attitudes like yours are part of the problem and the only way it will change is by some some sort of legislation because wrestling will never change itself. Its unlikely to happen but it should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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