Are the best babyfaces arseholes?

[PSF]

Rey Mysterio was always as massive Fucking sausage flicker. Most of his feuds were because he lost a match. He'd lose one week to Chavo clean, come out the next week and cost him his match and JR would act like Lil Fucking Rey Rey, was getting retribution. Announcers can be two faced fuckers, good job Ventura was always the voice of reason.

[The Cutting Edge]

There needs to be a difference between a face moaning and one highlighting injustice,

 

Cena has said himself he'll 'rise above hate, wont let the bad guys get to him' etc which is what kids are told about bullies but as adults he comes across as pussy,

 

Mostly and within reason ofcourse whatever a face does to a heel is fair game so if its a bit shitty its ok cause the bad guy deserves it and we support the good guy doing what we wish and want to do

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

There needs to be a difference between a face moaning and one highlighting injustice,

 

Cena has said himself he'll 'rise above hate, wont let the bad guys get to him' etc which is what kids are told about bullies but as adults he comes across as pussy,

 

Mostly and within reason ofcourse whatever a face does to a heel is fair game so if its a bit shitty its ok cause the bad guy deserves it and we support the good guy doing what we wish and want to do

 

I remember a while ago a number of people were commenting on CM Punk first MITB cash in against Edge and saying it was a dick move, but seemingly were utterly oblivious to the context that it was a face move in context due to the ironic hand of justice Edge was dealt.

 

Not all faces are dickheads. I give NXT a huge amount of credit for establishing Semi Zayn and Bailey as true blue eye'd faces who are so warmly embraced by the audience. When Zayn won the NXT title, he had a opportunity to use a chair, and the reaction from the audience who begged him not to was a rare and amazing sight to behold.

[air_raid]

 

I remember a while ago a number of people were commenting on CM Punk first MITB cash in against Edge and saying it was a dick move, but seemingly were utterly oblivious to the context that it was a face move in context due to the ironic hand of justice Edge was dealt.

 

I don't think it made him look a dick, but it was a cheap way for a guy that wasn't World title calibre at the time to win the belt and underscore that fact by using it to win the belt off somebody nobody would believe him capable of beating otherwise. So not a dick, but at best a jammy git and at worst a pussy.

 

The briefcase is a total heel device. Babyfaces shouldn't need to take such massive shortcuts. That's why the NXT crowd didn't want Zayn to use the chair in that match you reference - because it's a shortcut, and it would have made him a dick.

[Powerful_Fox]

If it wasn't for the story in the ring with Hogan that is the cliche babyface is worked over before a miraculous recovery, you would be forgiven thinking he was a heel with the eye-gouges, back rakes, going to the outside etc. Just because he turned his turned his face to the crowd a few times didn't mean he wasn't an utter cunt. When he went Hollywood, he even kept the same moveset.

 

As has been mentioned, the irony of it all is, whoever mentioned the fact (Ventura, Savage, Heenan etc.) were considered the heels. Sid was even turned heel because of his perfectly natural reaction to Hogan's cheating in the Rumble.

[King Pitcos]

For the most part, wrestling fans fall into two categories: children and weird arseholes. The genre is intrinsically odd. They run the anti-bullying campaign yet will base an episode around John Cena beating up a manager or commentator or something just for being cheeky, and people will go nuts for it. Even if you hate Cena, you can still wank your little mickey over him terrorising Michael Cole, who egregiously commentates without a ridiculous hick accent. Those are the times that most highlight how morally fucked up wrestling is -- not even the backstage stuff, just the onscreen "violence solves everything" message that the limitations of the form demand.

 

All the characters are arseholes, some are just more sanctimonious and hypocritical about it. Austin was open about being a prick. Cena does the "respect everyone, kids" routine then batters a little bow tie-wearing Mexican after accusing him of being queer with the bigger Mexican he manages.

[Slapnut]

Rey Mysterio was always as massive Fucking sausage flicker.

 

I have no idea what this means, but I laughed for a good few minutes when I read it.

 

Cena was a massive cunt when he attacked Del Rio for daring to cash in his MITB briefcase on CM Punk.  I felt genuinely sorry for Jack Swagger that time Big Show smashed all his trophies.

[Linus]

If they're an arsehole, they're not a babyface - they're a tweener. Now if you were asking "have sports entertainment companies forgotten how to push babyfaces?" you might be nearer the truth.

[air_raid]

 

Cena was a massive cunt when he attacked Del Rio for daring to cash in his MITB briefcase on CM Punk.  I felt genuinely sorry for Jack Swagger that time Big Show smashed all his trophies.

 

 

Cena also ruined Rollins' attempted cash-in on Brock at Night Of Champions. Admittedly that was understandable since Seth had just ruined Cena's chance, but if he'd been thinking clearly, he'd have let Seth have at Lesnar. He'd have had more chance beating Rollins down the line than beating Brock Lesnar on that night. As has been established since, funnily enough.

[Liam O'Rourke]

It's a weird deal, don't get me wrong, but it does look to have some credence to it. I think a lot of fans in the early 2000s when people (at least in my perspective) started taking firmer stances on the way things should be on this issue took the mentality of "faces must be great, heels shouldn't have any redeeming value and have no reason to cheer them", which kind of flew in the face of what had been going on for the previous five years. Rock was by no means utterly hateable as a heel. Nor was Flair. Hell, nor was Vince himself, he was wildly entertaining, he just had a foil that was so awesome you couldn't not cheer for Austin. Sheamus has no redeeming features currently, that doesn't make him a great heel to me, it makes him an uninteresting character.

 

What's worse is that the company itself seems confused by this fine line, with the HHH/Steph bipolar personalities and mixed message horseshit when it suits them personally, then trying to fit everyone else in the good guy/bad guy boxes. And so you really don't have the dynamic somewhat arsehole-ish personalities that you really want to cheer for, even though it's a sarcastic society and everybody wants to either love the guy who wins the argument in a fashion they at home can't, back a winner, or most simply, is just a cool motherfucker you want to watch.

 

Piper was the biggest piece of shit as a heel, kept his edge and made for a great babyface. Too many examples to list, but so many TV shows that get over have a main character that is a piece of shit (Don Draper, Walter White, etc), because they're more interesting. Part of the reason why the Ambrose waste is annoying at times, because with some actual development he could be the closest thing to that.

[Duke]

The best babyfaces are ones who are wish fulfilment for the fans. They should be doing what the fans wish they could do but they know they can't. For hogan it was about being invincible and massive. For Austin it was about about being a brawler who beat the hell out of his boss, for the rock it was about being a cool rock star. Adult men don't want to be like cena, but the kids do. Same with Roman. You see what happens to him and you want to see him beat up everyone because you wishcthats what you could do, but instead he acts like a human trying tosave face. Which is super lame.

 

Sometimes that wish fulfilment means being an arsehole, because people are arseholes. Its also because wish fulfilment is disproportionate response a lot of the time. It's not a character requirement, but sometimes you'd expect to look back and think they were.

[LaGoosh]

I think as long as the babyfaces are only arseholes to heels who themselves are even bigger arseholes then it's all good.

[Carbomb]

Piper was the biggest piece of shit as a heel, kept his edge and made for a great babyface. Too many examples to list, but so many TV shows that get over have a main character that is a piece of shit (Don Draper, Walter White, etc), because they're more interesting. Part of the reason why the Ambrose waste is annoying at times, because with some actual development he could be the closest thing to that.

 

I remember Freddie Blassie saying in his book that the more the fans hate you as a villain, the more they love you as a blue-eye. Makes sense, really - both sides display an element of what Duke rightly calls wish fulfilment. In the case of the faces, it's that they standing up for the weak, fighting the corrupt, etc., whereas the heels show that they're effective and dangerous.

[Briefcase]

I think the entrances are shit these days too, whether its the theme music/pyros or whatever. 

 

It's all too bland and generic, sometimes as a fan you go to the live shows to experience the pyros and special effects and of course that adds to a character too, less in your face gimmicks, less colour (in the sense of most wear dark clothing), less pyros. It's just boring. 

 

Go back 15/20 years ago you would have Austins glass break, DX, Kane/Undertaker, Y2J, Goldberg's sparkers, it just seemed such a huge thing when someone came out. Now you get Ziggler running out with the worst outfits, worst music, heel written on his trunks...it does nothing at all other than make me want to XX2 through the show. 

[Lenin]

I agree with the music thing - generic rock tune no.1000485 doesn't tell you anything about the character. Real American was iconic, really upbeat and you knew a good guy was en-route. Conversley, when you heard Iron Sheik's theme you knew a roaster was making their entrance.

 

It has been said loads though, simple things like that would help distinguish the two and make people stand out. One of the reasons Bray Wyatt got over was that entrance, it was great because there was the uncertainty of what was going to happen and you knew it would be bad for whoever was in the ring.