Paid Members tiger_rick Posted July 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted July 31, 2019 Not to get at @David because I do broadly agree with him but it's one of those complaints that's just pointless at this point. Like moaning about when football had muddy pitches, no sponsors on the shirts, clubs were all owned by local businessmen and players went home from the match on the bus. It's warm, rose-tinted nostalgia. The world's moved on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, BomberPat said: I don't necessarily agree when it comes to wrestlers having to be big muscular fuckers. I don't think they have to be either, but they're supposed to be wrestlers. That's why I mentioned the likes of Reigns, Strowman and Rowan, they aren't overly muscular but they look like wrestlers. Looking like action figures doesn't necessarily mean having the build of a He-Man toy from the 80's, it could relate to a number of different factors. Rowan and Strowman with their beards, for example. They have a very distinctive look, and they're huge individuals. If either of those guys walks into any restaurant or bar on the planet they're going to stand out, which is what wrestlers are supposed to do, isn't it? 18 minutes ago, BomberPat said: Ultimately, it's not about "larger than life" characters, it's about characters, full stop. That's where I disagree, wrestling is about larger than life characters. Look at the guys who've really made an imprint in the industry. The Rock, Austin, Hogan, Flair. All of them are larger than life characters, and most of them are big individuals compared to the average Joe. Even the so-called "smaller guys" from back in the day like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and even Flair would probably be hovering around the weight limit for a UFC heavyweight at over 205lbs, heading into the 230lbs and above area. The Ricochet fella is much like Balor in my opinion. He's an acrobat, but at 5'9 and under 190lbs he looks no different to your average in-shape guy on the street. Top that all off with the fact that when he talks he sounds like a nobody. Take away his impressive flips and there's fuck all to the lad, I'm sorry to say. He'd be working as a personal trainer/part-time model in Florida most likely. That look and demeanour works for your MMA fighters because fans and the general public know that even though they look average they're absolute killers in a cage. Just now, tiger_rick said: Not to get at @David because I do broadly agree with him but it's one of those complaints that's just pointless at this point. Like moaning about when football had muddy pitches, no sponsors on the shirts, clubs were all owned by local businessmen and players went home from the match on the bus. It's warm, rose-tinted nostalgia. The world's moved on. The difference is, we can point to football being wildly successful today because of the changes whereas wrestling is the drizzling shits for the most part compared to back then. This isn't some nostalgia trip here, I'm not ignoring the hard facts of change, I'm saying that WWE has painted itself into a corner where it doesn't quite know who its audience is, it doesn't quite know what the fuck its product is supposed to be, and it doesn't know what it wants from a top star. It's trying to be too many things to too many people, and succeeding at none of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 If it doesn't know who its audience is then how come they're making so much money? I don't really know why anyone watches WWE anymore, habit/nostalgia/masochism I guess, it was on in an Irish pub I visited the other week and for me it was very much like watching a video game. I get the "circus is in town" aspect of the live shows, but tuning in every week when you could be watching Better Call Saul? Maybe I'm just old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted July 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, David said: The Ricochet fella is much like Balor in my opinion. He's an acrobat, but at 5'9 and under 190lbs he looks no different to your average in-shape guy on the street. Top that all off with the fact that when he talks he sounds like a nobody. Take away his impressive flips and there's fuck all to the lad Yes, but "if you take away his flips he has nothing" is missing the point - with the flips he has something very special. So it's about highlighting and selling that, and glossing over the rest. Take Velveteen Dream - immensely talented, but he'd be fuck all without the gimmick, and by your criteria wouldn't be immediately identifiable as a "wrestler". Now if he starts popping up on talk shows in a polo shirt and a Burtons suit, they've fucked up. But if he shows up dressed to fit the gimmick, he'll get eyes on him without having to be seven feet tall and 300lbs. It's not about everyone having to be massive, or cutting Hogan/Warrior coke-fueled nonsense promos, it's about accentuating positives and hiding negatives. That counts in the ring, but it counts just as much outside it. Quote That look and demeanour works for your MMA fighters because fans and the general public know that even though they look average they're absolute killers in a cage. But this is part of the point - MMA, and to a lesser extent things like crossfit, have completely changed what people think fighters, wrestlers, or athletes look like. I don't know if the broader audience want wrestlers to look like He-Man figures any more, because that's not the broader context any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) Isn't it just a general shift in the way the humanoids view wrestling in general now? Kayfabe died ages ago and now people just want to see brightly costumed people doing some athletic moves. It's beach volleyball. I don't think you get blokes in Boston bars saying things like "Yeah, it might be fake, but that Bruno, man, he could kick your ass" anymore. Vince has won - it's just another form of pop culture and nobody cares if the practitioners are ripped or not. Do any of them even take steroids now? There would be little point, work on that flip instead. Edited July 31, 2019 by Brewster McCloud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted July 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, Brewster McCloud said: I don't think you get blokes in Boston bars saying things like "Yeah, it might be fake, but that Bruno, man, he could kick your ass". I imagine you do. I certainly hear old boys waxing lyrical about Mick McManus et al often enough when the topic of wrestling comes up, or when I'm at the bar after working a show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, BomberPat said: Yes, but "if you take away his flips he has nothing" is missing the point - with the flips he has something very special. So it's about highlighting and selling that, and glossing over the rest. Hasn't there always been guys in the industry who could do that kind of shit though? I used to see them at the start of WCW PPV's back in the day, except they usually wore masks and had cooler sounding names. If you're saying that there's a place on the roster for guys like him, absolutely, but it's as a primer to the main stars, surely? 2 minutes ago, BomberPat said: Take Velveteen Dream - immensely talented, but he'd be fuck all without the gimmick, and by your criteria wouldn't be immediately identifiable as a "wrestler". Now if he starts popping up on talk shows in a polo shirt and a Burtons suit, they've fucked up. But if he shows up dressed to fit the gimmick, he'll get eyes on him without having to be seven feet tall and 300lbs. I've not seen much of him, but i'm assuming he can talk? If he's got a persona that stands out and an ability to sell himself then that's part of being "larger than life," isn't it? There have been exceptions throughout wrestling history of guys who maybe aren't big physically but are exceptional on the mic and have something about them. On top of that, he's like 6'2 and not far off 240lbs, so he's not a small man, and having Googled him he has a flamboyant look. I'm not saying everyone has to be huge, but they surely have to have something about them, right? Guys like Earthquake or Akeem weren't the best on the mic, but their thing was being giant, while the smaller guys were usually great talkers or they had personality. There's too many guys today who have none of that in my opinion. They are average sized dudes, with average looks and average personality. Their one difference from the average Joe is that they're athletic. 10 minutes ago, BomberPat said: But this is part of the point - MMA, and to a lesser extent things like crossfit, have completely changed what people think fighters, wrestlers, or athletes look like. I don't know if the broader audience want wrestlers to look like He-Man figures any more, because that's not the broader context any more. Yeah, but what do the audience think of when they think of professional wrestlers? Fighters? Athletes? For me it's characters and fun that I think of, and very few of the current lot have got the goods to deliver unfortunately. If I want fighters I'll watch UFC, and if I want proper athletic competition with top drawer athletes I'm certainly not watching WWE, I'm watching football or some other legit competitive sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Cod Eye Posted July 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted July 31, 2019 10 minutes ago, BomberPat said: But if he shows up dressed to fit the gimmick, he'll get eyes on him without having to be seven feet tall and 300lbs. This, is the point I was trying to make about the Balor/Coronation Street photos and what I think is a very important aspect of the industry is missing these days. I've already mention the Hogan's/Savage's only appearing in public in their trademark looks, but even during the attitude era, you would be hard pushed to catch Austin making public appearances dressed in anything other than the jeans/jean shorts and t-shirt look he was famous for which differentiated him from those he appeared with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, BomberPat said: I imagine you do. I certainly hear old boys waxing lyrical about Mick McManus et al often enough when the topic of wrestling comes up, or when I'm at the bar after working a show. They're not talking about the current crop, though, right? Unless you go into a pub close to the venue around showtime. Last time I overheard a conversation about wrestling in a non-wrestling context was about 20 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted July 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, David said: I'm not saying everyone has to be huge, but they surely have to have something about them, right? Guys like Earthquake or Akeem weren't the best on the mic, but their thing was being giant, while the smaller guys were usually great talkers or they had personality. And this is my point - Ricochet demonstrably does have "something about him". But you've hand-waved that away because it's not the "something" you're after. Ricochet's flips and high spots would absolutely attract the attention of a casual observer, so that's what you draw attention to, not his poor mic skills. It's no different to your Earthquakes or Akeems getting by on being big fuckers. You find each wrestler's USP and you can double down on it. That's how it works, and how it's always worked. I'll agree that a lot of the current crop don't have an obvious USP - I mentioned earlier that I'd still struggle to explain what Seth Rollins is - but I think there needs to be a broader net cast as to what that might be; it goes beyond just someone's look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheToeSucker Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 I mean, I just like storytelling. Hogan was king at that. As was HBK. Two different bodytypes completely. I think we being in the UK means, that we have a nostalgia to the WWF, because for a lot of us, that's all we had. And Hogan and Warrior who was the drizzling shits, were ontop. The world has moved on, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, TheToeSucker said: I mean, I just like storytelling. Hogan was king at that. As was HBK. Two different bodytypes completely. I think we being in the UK means, that we have a nostalgia to the WWF, because for a lot of us, that's all we had. And Hogan and Warrior who was the drizzling shits, were ontop. The world has moved on, for sure. Well, the best storylines ever involved Hogan - the Andre and Savage feuds. Dunno what you mean by "all we had" - I was watching WCW on ITV as a young spark. And the Warrior doesn't get the respect he deserves. A prick in real life, but a great act while it lasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 14 minutes ago, BomberPat said: And this is my point - Ricochet demonstrably does have "something about him". But you've hand-waved that away because it's not the "something" you're after. Ricochet's flips and high spots would absolutely attract the attention of a casual observer, so that's what you draw attention to, not his poor mic skills. It's no different to your Earthquakes or Akeems getting by on being big fuckers. You find each wrestler's USP and you can double down on it. That's how it works, and how it's always worked. I'll agree that a lot of the current crop don't have an obvious USP - I mentioned earlier that I'd still struggle to explain what Seth Rollins is - but I think there needs to be a broader net cast as to what that might be; it goes beyond just someone's look. No, I just said that there's definitely a place for a Ricochet on the roster today, just as there was for a Juventud Guerrera, Ultimo Dragon and other smaller guys with zero personality who could perform cool acrobatics back in the day. The place for that isn't at the top of the card in my opinion, that's for sure. Traditionally those spots were reserved for the guys who had more tools in their locker. They were either impressive physically and could talk, or they were really great talkers with athletic ability, and so on. I don't care what anyone says, there's not going to be a lot of fans in 20 years time looking back on Ricochet as an all-time great, is there? If anything he's featured so prominently because of the lack of real stars today. What I do think the likes of UFC has done is provide another outlet for your amateur wrestler types who are hard as nails to pursue, whereas in the past they would go down the route of bouncing bars and pro wrestling. The likes of a Scott Steiner, Rick Rude, Brock Lesnar, Harley Race etc would all likely have opted for the MMA path before pro wrestling if they were in their formative years today (maybe not through choice to be honest, as the criteria for being a WWE star is different from back in the day and some of them may not have had the temper for it). Sure, they may not have actually made it to the UFC but they'd have likely been the types who travel from small show to small show competing against other guys, all hoping to get the call to the UFC someday. Then again, maybe WWE is just as successful as it ever was and it's just bypassed people like me? I see no point in watching it now unless it's a nostalgia show. If I want athleticism I'll watch a proper competitive sport, if I want fighting I'll watch guys do it for real in MMA, and if I want to watch stuff written by TV-style writers I'll watch a television series. Pro wrestling ticks none of the boxes anymore for me, it's attraction for me was the corny, over the top ridiculous storylines and characters, and they're all gone now. It's like watching a Jerry Springer show that features sensible, well-mannered individuals instead of dumb as fuck redneck types, and which has been written and produced by the team who do the Tonight Show. It just doesn't really work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 The likes of you and I, David, are utterly irrelevant. We prefer to watch UFC, plenty of others still watch WWE every week. Rinse, repeat. Vince is not having a crisis about the lack of roided up lunatics on his roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheToeSucker Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 14 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said: Well, the best storylines ever involved Hogan - the Andre and Savage feuds. Dunno what you mean by "all we had" - I was watching WCW on ITV as a young spark. And the Warrior doesn't get the respect he deserves. A prick in real life, but a great act while it lasted. I just mean in general. People tend to look at the WWF as the template for wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts