Random thoughts thread v2 *NO NEWS ITEMS*

[Dirty Eddie]

I think it's the case of the old saying that you only make someone a Superstar by having them beat other Superstars.

 

Bret had it hard in 1992 and 1993 because of guys like Hogan, Sid, Savage and Flair leaving. If he'd had been put over by some of those guys on major PPV events maybe he'd have been seen as a bigger deal? Not to knock their actual talent, but beating guys like Owen Hart, Bam Bam, Razor and IC Champ-level Shawn Michaels is hardly a list of megastar victories. Had he beaten Flair and Savage in (surely epic) PPV matches it would have done wonders for his stock.

 

Austin was put over huge by Hart with a feud that did both the world of good, then cleanly beat Michaels at Mania, beat the Taker at Summerslam, beat the Rock at Mania. Decisive victories on the biggest stages against genuine top level mainstays. Rock had similar treatment, beating all the Attitude Era's top stars like Austin,Taker, HHH, Foley etc...

The comparison doesn't work in terms of "beat other superstars" -- Austin never beat Bret in a big match, nor anyone else until he was already driving the train. He disproves the "need to beat stars" theory as much as he proves it. What were Austin's huge victories before the '98 Rumble? Beating Michaels at WrestleMania launched the Austin era officially, but Stone Cold was already the biggest thing in the company when his biggest wins were over Jake Roberts, Owen Hart and a pseudo-win at the '97 Rumble. The big thing that got Austin over was a loss to Bret Hart at WrestleMania, not a win.

 

Likewise The Rock, even moreso because he didn't even have a beat-Michaels-at-WrestleMania type win. He didn't beat Austin until 2003, when both of their careers were winding down. The Rock spent 1998 losing to Ken Shamrock and Triple H before trading wins with Mankind, who was on the same level as him (and also was getting to the top on the strength of personality and performances rather than win-loss records). Rock then spent 1999 losing to Austin, Undertaker and Triple H but becoming the biggest star in wrestling with it.

 

You are indeed right with Austin and the Rock to an extent. Perhaps the "Beating other superstars" thing was putting it too simply. It was more a case that there were so many top level guys who were over that they had plenty of names to build long, important feuds with. It's weird actually with both them and Mankind - as they all became established at top heels before their massive face turns. Still, the fact remains that Austin was put over as a top heel and top flight talent by going toe-to-toe with the Hitman for year, while Mankind got a number of big wins over the rarely-beaten Undertaker in a long important feud to build him up for a top spot. It's obviously a combination of big-time opponents and great booking, but having real top-level stars to trade wins and losses with makes a lot of difference.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Dirty Eddie

[AshC]

I think it was late 1998 when it really exploded. That's when wrestling T-shirts were everywhere, the games were huge, people who used to watch seemed to be watching again, wrestlers were on TV shows, etc. That was proper boom time.

 

I went to the States in December 1998 and brought home a haul of stuff, as I could hardly get anything over here. A couple of months later, I remember Nation of Domination Mark Henry showing up in The Entertainer. So I think you might be pretty much spot on there. A lot of people were watching the TV regularly throughout 1998, but I think that's the time it really took off, in terms of re-emerging as a pop culture thing.

 

And re. the Michaels/Austin/Tyson stuff, I recall excitedly photocopying a newspaper piece on it in the library, that's how valuable any WWF stuff seemed at the time! I also recall there being a spoiler of Austin beating Michaels on Ceefax the next day, as part of a story on Tyson's involvement. It was still being pretty much ridiculed at this point.

 

As a slight aside, as a non-Sky subscriber in a group of friends that had lost interest in wrestling, I didn't know there was a second Michaels/Ramon ladder match until I read it on the back of the VHS release months later.

[Mr Butternut Squash]

Yes, Condrey was in the the original Midnight's with Randy Rose in the early 80s. Bobby Eaton and Cornette would join him later in Mid South. He had a stint in WCW but he left in 87 and Cornette and Eaton were joined by Lane and took Midnights name. Him and Rose were brought back a couple of years later by Heyman as the 'Original Midnight Express' to feud with the newly babyface Cornette version. I don't think there's ever been a weirder sight than babyface Jim Cornette and it's a credit to that slimy cunt Paul Heyman for making it work. The Heyman/Cornette match at Great American Bash 89 is a bunch of fun and Cornette throws a mean right.

 

Why did the Rose & Condrey Vs Eaton & Lane match they had planned in 89 become Rose & Jack cunting Victory Vs Eaton & Lane?

 

It's a side, but I've seen that match loads of times but can't recall why it ended up as it did.

 

Good question. I only have Condrey's wiki to go by;

 

The Midnights vs. Midnights would be the hottest feud in the NWA for months, building up to a 6-man tag match involving the managers on pay-per-view in February 1989. The one who got pinned would have to leave the promotion. However, due to changes in ownership, the NWA was going through booking upheaval with Dusty Rhodes being replaced as head booker by George Scott. Jim Crockett already had a problem with Condrey due to his previous overnight disappearance and Scott had previous animosity with Rose, so Scott's appearance as top booker made for the catalyst to bury the team and the feud. The feud was cooled off and the "loser leaves town" match was going to be used to kick one of them out of the territory once and for all and continue to bury the other. At the last minute, Dennis Condrey once again decided to leave the NWA, rather than take his PPV payoff and give Crockett and Scott the satisfaction. Jack Victory was brought in as his replacement and the match went forward.

 

They did wrestle at Starrcade 88 in a

.

 

I love this stuff, especially the bumping, the stooging and the psychical involvement of the managers. Eaton & Lane were an exciting 'workrate' team, for a lack of a better term, and they always came across as credible, despite some silliness. It's probably why they got such good pops as heels (as well as Cornette who people loved to hate.) The Condrey era is just as great, probably better even.

[Sphinx]

In my age group, the games were big business. I remember loving Tekken and wishing I could create my own character - then along come the WWF games where you can do just that, better than any other game. That customisation was a big thing. You also had silliness like backstage braels with trollies and mops and the like on SmackDown! which was a pretty new concept at the time. Loads of people had that game, whether they watched the show or not and it was a great way to introduce characters to the new fan. WWF Attitude was my first exposure to wrestling.

[WWFChilli]

Someone posted this on the FSM fb page. Cracked me up.

 

"hi FSM I will not be a wwe fan anymore back in oct a wwe superstar call me an idiot. and that wwe superstar is dusin runnerls on his facebook page. your issue99 has him. said that this month... man of the month. he any no man he would say he was sorry to me.if anyone is an idiot its him not me. dustin runnels is one big ass!! for calling a fan an idiot goodbye."

[Kaz Hayashi]

Brilliant, could be several posters off here.

 

Anyway, I've never understood a particular ref call, or non ref call for that matter. Just been watching HBK vs bulldog from an old raw episode. HBK had bulldog in a headlock whilst davey was face down on the canvas. Bulldog slapped the floor in frustration.

 

There's been many a time a wrestler in a similar position and they slap the floor in desperation, to feel the energy of the crowd.

 

Why do/did refs not class it as a submission?

 

Daft question, I know

[JNLister]

WWE never used tapping as a way of submitting until Ken Shamrock came in and they copied it from UFC.

[CTXRussomark]

Brilliant, could be several posters off here.

 

Anyway, I've never understood a particular ref call, or non ref call for that matter. Just been watching HBK vs bulldog from an old raw episode. HBK had bulldog in a headlock whilst davey was face down on the canvas. Bulldog slapped the floor in frustration.

 

There's been many a time a wrestler in a similar position and they slap the floor in desperation, to feel the energy of the crowd.

 

Why do/did refs not class it as a submission?

 

Daft question, I know

Well back then they didn't acknowledge a tap-out as a form of submission anyway (was only post-Shamrock that came into play), but even so the act of hitting your hand off the mat alone doesn't signify a submission if the person is clearly not attempting to give up.

[Kaz Hayashi]

Fucking hell, never knew that, crackers. So the whole 'ask him ref' or completely knocked out was the only way of acknowledging it then.

 

CRX - I see what your saying but if a groggy wrestler is sloppily slapping the mat, how would tge ref know if its intentional or not, unless its scripted of course.

 

Cheers for explaining that shamrock point though.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Kaz Hayashi

[Polish Dad]

I was always told three taps in short succession is the sign for submitting.

[PowerButchi]

Ric Flair now lives with Joe Gomez. That is the greatest thing I've ever heard. Hopefully Jim Powers or someone else jobbing on WCW Pro circa 1998 pops in now and again for a cup of tea.

[Chris Brooker]

Someone posted this on the FSM fb page. Cracked me up.

 

"hi FSM I will not be a wwe fan anymore back in oct a wwe superstar call me an idiot. and that wwe superstar is dusin runnerls on his facebook page. your issue99 has him. said that this month... man of the month. he any no man he would say he was sorry to me.if anyone is an idiot its him not me. dustin runnels is one big ass!! for calling a fan an idiot goodbye."

 

He posted something similar on the Eros Comedy Facebook page.

 

hey everyone I will not be a wwe fan anymore back in oct. dustin runnels call me an idiot on his facebook page. he hurt my fellings made me cry. and now I am piss off at him. that was not cool. calling a big fan an idiot. and don't have the balls to say he was sorry to me. I will not be a fan anymore! goodbye.

 

Clearly playing the long game, waging a one man war against the vicious brute that wronged him. It's like a ham fisted version of Kill Bill.

[JNLister]

I was always told three taps in short succession is the sign for submitting.

 

Yeah, I think John McCarthy developed that (it may be four taps) in the early UFC days to find a compromise between making sure the ref could break it up quickly, but avoiding any confusion about whether the guy meant to submit.

[AshC]

There were definitely no tap-outs on WWF/WCW TV, pre-Shamrock. Probably the UFC's biggest influence on American wrestling, ironically. It was pretty much exclusively a nod of the head or verbal surrender beforehand.

[Tony B. Liar]

There were definitely no tap-outs on WWF/WCW TV, pre-Shamrock. Probably the UFC's biggest influence on American wrestling, ironically. It was pretty much exclusively a nod of the head or verbal surrender beforehand.

 

 

Thats the closest I've found to a pre shamrock tap out.

 

It looks more like a 'sonnen' tap out though.