Paid Members air_raid Posted January 17, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 17, 2013 You either end up with a new babyface who is Cena again in different clothes (like Sheamus is and Kofi would be), or a total flop of an "edgy" babyface like CM Punk and Randy Orton. Â I might be a step off. What do you mean by this? As in, a top babyface that gets booed because of "rebellious mongs"? Â There's no real upside to heel John Cena, except having a bunch of forty year olds looking back fondly in ten years going "wrestling was shit in 2014, but that time Cena did Gangnam Style to impress Vickie and get out of defending the title was hilarious." Â You've just undone all the good work your perfectly salient points made with that one single image. I'd book Cena to cleanly win a handicap match over Taker, Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin with one arm tied behind his back, regardless of how pointless and not-worth-the-risk it was, if it meant that skit aired on WWE TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted January 17, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Clicked the link in Pitcos' sig for the first time tonight. Fucking brilliant. Do it now, if you've never bothered before. Â Also... Â The only thing I can't see is Undertaker submitting, it would more likely be a twenty-seven chair shots type deal for me. Â That's what makes the proposed heel turn even more amazing for me. Â To be honest the submission would follow the 27 chair shots, but because nobody really thinks that realistically he would lose at all, (let alone submit), to me every single wrestling fan (from kids to the older fans) would instantly hate him Loads of older fans already do. And kids wouldn't need him to end the streak to turn on him. It would be a phenomenal ending for me, though, because the reaction to it would be like "18 seconds" and Cena beating Lesnar times a million. Cena's new T-shirt that night should be yellow with a trollface in the middle. Â This made me chuckle. I felt inspired to knock this up. Now I actually really want one. Â Â Sorry it's not yellow, like. Edited January 17, 2013 by Arch Stanton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavemanLynn Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 My dad-in-law sent me a WWE Rumblers Sheamus with the iPad attachment thing for my 30th birthday this week (not sure if that puts either of us in a good light or not!). The Apptivity game is pretty fun for half an hour or so, in a cheap-n-cheerful button-mashy (or this case, swipey-swipey) way. Annoyingly though, it does make me wish that that style of game is still what I really want WWE to release for home consoles - cartoon graphics, basic controls, nothing but special moves, etc. Properly OTT. Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I might be a step off. What do you mean by this? As in, a top babyface that gets booed because of "rebellious mongs"? Ultimately, yes. Making puerile wisecracks, doing the right thing, ostensibly being a good role model, kicking out of opponent's finishers for heroic comebacks etc. "They" already complain about Sheamus for these reasons, and that'd be amplified if he got Cena's level of exposure. Â There's no real upside to heel John Cena, except having a bunch of forty year olds looking back fondly in ten years going "wrestling was shit in 2014, but that time Cena did Gangnam Style to impress Vickie and get out of defending the title was hilarious." Â You've just undone all the good work your perfectly salient points made with that one single image. I'd book Cena to cleanly win a handicap match over Taker, Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin with one arm tied behind his back, regardless of how pointless and not-worth-the-risk it was, if it meant that skit aired on WWE TV. Exactly. It'd be fantastic. But we'd still moan about everything else that was on Raw that week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Butternut Squash Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Are WWE babyfaces still considered good role models? They act like bigger dickheads than the heels a lot of the time, just look at Sheamus kicking 3mbs heads in after losing last week for example. Â Â Â What happens these days in regard to the Rumble undercard guys getting involved in the Rumble itself? Sheamus/Orton/Ryback vs Shield seems like the sensible way to go but I know the first team are (don't know bout Ryback) all involved in the rumble. Do they still do blokes appearing for both? I don't know what they'll do with the Shield otherwise, putting them in the Rumble seems like a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Are WWE babyfaces still considered good role models? They act like bigger dickheads than the heels a lot of the time, just look at Sheamus kicking 3mbs heads in after losing last week for example. Yeah, that's why I said ostensibly -- all wrestlers are pretty sociopathic when it comes down to it. Â What happens these days in regard to the Rumble undercard guys getting involved in the Rumble itself? Sheamus/Orton/Ryback vs Shield seems like the sensible way to go but I know the first team are (don't know bout Ryback) all involved in the rumble. Do they still do blokes appearing for both? I don't know what they'll do with the Shield otherwise, putting them in the Rumble seems like a bad idea. It could go either way. According to the "leaked script" there's about twenty minutes unaccounted for on the show. I would think they'd put all the focus for Sheamus, Orton and Ryback on the Rumble itself rather than adding a tag match. The Shield seem like odd entrants for the Rumble, but they could easily do a run-in, throw people out and then Ryback's music hits and he's the next entrant. Ryback vs Shield is an odd feud, because both sides are on the big push. Ryback has to beat them to avenge his losses in every major match he's ever had, but it's their first feud so they're a bit knackered when he does. WWE might stretch it out til WrestleMania for the big blow-off match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vamp Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) Also, I have to disagree with Vamp that people would cheer him if he was a villain, because it doesn't necessarily follow he'll be edgy and cool as one. Cena's one of the best workers around, and, for a blue-eye, has had considerable experience in getting under people's skin in a pseudo-heel way (I'm thinking the ONS grin with the belt while that fan yells in his ear) - I think all he'd have to do is just keep doing his shtick so as to play the hypocrite card, in the way Angle did in his early years as an All-American heel. Â Let's be entirely honest here, Cena was the coolest motherfucker alive that night. But that was because he had something, bigger than him with that crowd, to work against. That night Cena was working against nostalgic fanboy loving, there's no greater opponent. He won't have that every night if he turns heel. And without that he's just the coolest motherfucker alive with a don't care attitude. Let's bear in mind that the last time Cena played a heel, he played a 'white boy' rapper gimmick where he dressed in completely over the top pathetic clothes and made really, really shit raps and half the crowd loved him because he was damn cool doing it. And I don't think all adults are mongs, I think some of them are mongs and the rest of them join in because it's a bit of a laugh. The WWE's got itself into a position where it virtually encourages you to boo Cena if you're an adult. Cena's far more interesting now when he's in a big match and playing a hateful crowd while still working as a hero who's trying to entertain them and do things right than he will be as a heel. Cena's an incredibly layered character as he is, perhaps too much so for a wrestling show, even though they could probably hammer it home some more. He's like Bret Hart but without all the nationality crap. Cena's a hero who half (or more, whatever) the world (crowd/universe) don't like but he still shows his heroic virtues, still battles the odds, still fights for that same crowd who don't like him (complaints about The Rock not really giving a fuck) out of, a perhaps misguised, loyalty for them. And every now and then there's the question of whether Cena will snap, but the minute you do that you lose the fascinating tension that exists in the character. And once you pull that trigger you can't go back. Austin was never Austin again once he sold out. The WWE's already got an 'edgy' and 'hypocrite' heel in CM Punk, and I think Cena would probably do a better job at it than Punk, but he'll have no one to work with. The system won't change. It'd be disasterous for Punk because Cena will probably out perform him on the one thing he can do. And as much as people shit on Cena on the mic, if he turned heel that'd probably improve, and then what? Can Daniel Bryan or Ryback compete with Cena on the mic? Turning Cena heel will be like one of two scenarios, the time they turned Austin heel or the time they turned The Rock heel (just before he left for movies). Austin sang songs with Kurt Angle and Vince, which was fun, but that was it. There was no tension because there was nobody on Austin's level and the show show suffered as a result. When The Rock turned heel he was kept on the periphery somewhat, he still got a hell of a lot of TV time, but he and Austin was a sideshow attraction heading into WrestleMania (quite rightly) and things in the middle of the show, the serious important things that mattered to the company as a whole, continued on. The Hurricane got over for a couple of weeks. Â I just don't see how turning Cena heel results in a more interesting character, a better overall product, better business, him getting the 'right' crowd response or creating a new hero. I'm game for them teasing it more than they do but actually pulling that trigger? Meh. Besides, the WWE had a chance at creating the nex big babyface (although he can't talk for toffee) and that was Ryback. They wouldn't even put him over CM Punk. Which was fucking stupid. The fact that Ryback's still over now is because of his charisma. If Ryback's not going over Punk when he's that hot because Punk's got to keep hold of the belt before he drops it to The Rock who'll bugger off after WrestleMania then the system's wrong. Cena turning heel won't change that. And at least you have a focal babyface at the moment. Â The WWE's quandry is it's trying to create a family product while still working towards their adult audience. A heel Cena will still be in that broken system. Â Edit: Â On the topic of The Shield and Ryback I wouldn't actually enter The Shield in the Rubmle. Like Pictos said, have them run in and clean house. Out comes Bryan, he can't defeat the odds and gets beaten down, the next entrant is Kane, he competes but can't quite do it and then in comes Ryback, he's seen enough and just wants to get at The Shield but he's not the next entrant. The babyfaces rally back and The Shield make a strategic retreat. Ryback goes to back, gets ready for his entrance as loads of officials discuss soemthing, then under some bullshit ruling they tell Ryback he's been disqualified for entering too early. Ryback goes mental, charges to the ring, kills everybody in it and then buggers off. Rumbles are all about bullshit ruling anyway. Edited January 18, 2013 by Vamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted January 18, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 18, 2013 Ultimately, yes. Making puerile wisecracks, doing the right thing, ostensibly being a good role model, kicking out of opponent's finishers for heroic comebacks etc. "They" already complain about Sheamus for these reasons, and that'd be amplified if he got Cena's level of exposure. Â Fucking hell, what a pile of crap. Sounds like WWE is fucked for creating a top babyface at all until these tossers find something else to do with their time then. Let's reject anyone pushed strongly even if we've made them popular in the first place. Dickheads. Â Nothing really changes, does it.... Â Hey! They could turn Cena heel. But that would be dumb. Or would it? BLAH BLAH BLAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 18, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 18, 2013 Genuine question: where is it they're complaining about Sheamus? I've not seen anything here, so I'm guessing it must be on the F4W boards or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 This sort of thing: http://www.wrestlingforum.com/smackdown/61...r-pushed-5.html http://www.wrestlingforum.com/smackdown/61...-john-cena.html http://www.wrestlingforum.com/raw/640089-s...005-2007-a.html http://www.wrestlingforum.com/smackdown/62...ies-what-6.html http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.p...3073&page=1 http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?p=4144905 http://forums.prowrestlingfans.com/general...rrated-yet.html  hes better as a heel in my opnion but hes an ok face they just have to stop trying to make him a superman character like cena  quit having this dude be the irish super cena. it's annoying to see him get killed for 13 minutes then land the brogue kick outta no where to win the match. the hell is this?  It was mostly fuelled by him beating the darling boy at WrestleMania (though it started a few months before that, and they weren't happy that he won the Rumble instead of Jericho), and has probably died down since Big Show won the title off him. It flares up in certain live crowds if he's programmed against opponents like Ziggler, Punk, Bryan. Regardless, it's nowhere near Cena levels in most fans, but it'd definitely head in that direction pretty fast if he had Cena's position on the card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted January 18, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 18, 2013 Absolutely ridiculous. The guy's great, for fuck's sake. Â I'm more likely to defend the IWC than you are, but that's indefensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz Windham Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Been watching the Best of Raw Vol 1&2 tagged classic that covers July to October 1996. Some really good stuff on there and interesting to see what Raw was like at the time. Â In some ways it seems quite similar to today, very few 'stars' and the few that they have like Michaels are putting in big shifts every week with really long TV matches, all the matches on here are pretty long. Just watched a couple great Marc Mero matches vs Owen and Farooq in the IC title tournament. Despite his shiny helmet (LOL) Farooq was pretty good here. Also just watched JR's first heel promo, was actually really great stuff and again fairly similar to today with plenty of it's a shoot brother stuff. Shame it led into the pretty awful Diesel/Ramon stuff. Â And how bloody over was Sid? I mean I think he's great and everything but what exactly changed from getting not much reaction in late 95 to the place going apeshit for him powerbombing ponytail JBL in July 96. Could it be the aforementioned lack of stars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted January 18, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 18, 2013 won the Rumble instead of Jericho beating the darling boy at WrestleMania programmed against opponents like Ziggler, Punk, Bryan. Â That'll do it. Yeah, that's the IRC in a nutshell isn't it. Fucking idiots. If he wasn't another Super Cena he'd only be another Snitsky or Heidenreich to them. Sheamus is the big "musclehead" that the workerz have to work around to assemble something good. His matches with Show are overrated and only marks liked them. Steamboat was a bigger star than Hogan, it was Cruiserweights that made Nitro, not the nWo, Swagger should be main eventing by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted January 18, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 18, 2013 I mean I think he's great and everything but what exactly changed from getting not much reaction in late 95 to the place going apeshit for him powerbombing ponytail JBL in July 96. Could it be the aforementioned lack of stars? Â By the end of 1995 they'd pretty much ruined any star aura Sid had in that run. Booking him to run away from Diesel, having him lose to a mere big boot in their decisive match, scrubbing him from SummerSlam in such a high-profile manner, losing to Shawn in such convincing manner (and never looking remotely like winning the belt in the process), needing to cheat to beat losers like Henry Godwinn, playing babysitter to the Kid.... yeah. Big dumb coward, can't beat anyone, not as important as the 1-2-3 Kid. Â When he came back in 1996 they booked him pretty strong. He was the ace up Shawn's sleeve, that went quite a way to making him look a big deal. Being able to match up to Vader (who still looked a beast) helped, so during the rest of 1996 he was an awesome guy to come out and splatter heels. I certainly approved when I got to see him hammer Farooq at the NEC. I was a massive mark for Sid, he was definitely #2 in the Bret Hart Premier League of Raid's favourites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members SpiritOfTheForest Posted January 18, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted January 18, 2013 it's annoying to see him get killed for 13 minutes then land the brogue kick outta no where to win the match. the hell is this? Â This here is one of the reasons I personally can't stand John Cena. I don't mean to sound like Fin Martin but it's infuriating to see him take a shit ton of offense, get up, hit a couple of moves and an AA and instantly take the win. Look at his match with Ziggler only on Monday for the most recent example of that. It makes everything that's happened previously in the match completely pointless if he doesn't sell the moves he's taken as if they're hindering him. The way he runs around the ring like a buffoon after such a victory only adds to my dislike. Â But I totally disagree with those fans who are giving the same criticisms to Sheamus. That's for a couple of reasons. First and easily the worst reason I have is that he's Irish - I don't mind seeing his interviews and that's at least partly because I like the novelty of having a dominant Irish wrestler rather than another American. As a result I somehow enjoy him more, and the Father Ted references don't hurt matters either. I fully accept that this is a shit reason but still. Â Secondly, Sheamus looks more the part to me. Lookwise he's a badass. He looks like a proper competitor and this makes me like him more because it's easier to watch somebody who looks the part and who you could genuinely see as a threat. Cena however dresses like a manchild and generally just looks idiotic. My girlfriend, who has barely ever seen any wrestling in her life, has remarked her immense dislike of him because "he looks like a little boy." Such a look for a WWE champion is clearly not appealing to everone. Â Thirdly, regarding what I actually quoted more specifically, on top of my irritation of Cena's inability to sell during and after making his "heroic comeback", the reason his are far more irritating than Sheamus' is because his moves just look far worse. At least I can kinda believe that if Sheamus gets up after 10 minutes of abuse and manages to kick somebody square in the face he could get a win out of it. Or devastate someone with his Celtic Cross. Or even his new cloverleaf. Cena on the other hand has terrible looking offense - the STFU looks like utter shit and it's nearing impossible to believe that move would get a victory, especially after the recipient has thrown everything at John Cena. The AA, while slightly better, doesn't hold a candle to the pedigree, tombstone, chokeslam, stunner etc. Cena winning after making a superhuman comeback shouldn't necessary be a bad thing. It's when the comebacks look shit that the problem arises, while Sheamus looks believable and mostrous. Â Just my 2 Cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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