Mount Rushmore of Wrestling (based on real one's criteria)

[Carbomb]

OK, so it's been raised by ArchDuke that there are specific values attached to the faces on the stolen, sacred Native landmark in South Dakota Mount Rushmore, which are:

Washington (Foundation)

Jefferson (Expansion)

Roosevelt (Development)

Lincoln (Preservation)

 

On that basis, who fits that for American wrestling? On initial contemplation, it strikes me thus:

Buddy Rogers (Foundation) - On the basis that he was probably the guy who created the character-driven morality play that is modern pro wrestling, changing it from what it was before. Of course, I am not a historian, so if anyone can point to a wrestler who heralded the shift from the pro sport-presented industry as it was to how it is now, I'll accept the correction.

Vince McMahon (Expansion) - There's no real argument for this, surely? Yes, what he did was good for the WWF/WWE primarily, but wrestling as an industry is now so much bigger than it was in the territory days. Not sure you have wrestling in the mainstream consciousness like it is now, without him.

Hulk Hogan (Development) - Without Hogan, McMahon doesn't expand his business. And Hogan's character and style of working sets the standard for how a lot of mainstream wrestling goes from then on.

Stone Cold Steve Austin (Preservation) - It's primarily because of the Stone Cold-driven Attitude Era that the WWF survives the competition with wCw (like Lincoln, he leads the North to victory against the South), and goes on to be THE wrestling company.

 

Of course, it goes without saying that that's a pretty horrendous monument - at least three of those faces are of problematic individuals, to say the least. I don't know enough about Rogers, other than he had alcohol problems.

 

As regards the Mount Rushmore of Puro, my attempt would be:

Rikidozan (Foundation) - He's called the Father of Puro for a reason.

Giant Baba/Antonio Inoki (Expansion/Development) - These two feel interchangeable in terms of their positions in the industry. Both household names in Japan (even if not as big as Grado), even non-fans in Japan know who they are, along with Rikidozan.

Hiroshi Tanahashi (Preservation)

That last one I'm not sure about - would've liked to include Misawa, but his actions, whilst apparently justified given Motoko Baba's running of Zen-Nihon, in hindsight don't appear to have done much for puro, and Shin-Nihon have gone on to do much better. So I included Tanahashi because he seems to have overseen a period in which NJPW became the prominent promotion and got big enough to do well-attended shows in other parts of the world.

 

What other Mount Rushmores in wrestling come to mind? Doesn't have to be a part of the world, though it would be fascinating to read thoughts on what would constitute the MRs for British wrestling and lucha libre would be. Maybe women's, tag-team, or hardcore?

Again, will take correction from anyone better informed.

[Guest]

I mean, if we're going to worry about problematic individuals on Mount Rushmore, we better get working on the real one.

[theringmaster]

What a great idea for a thread!

 

UK is really hard, is there a significant 'Foundation'?

Foundation-?

Expansion-Joint promotions (hard to pin point one)

Development-Big Daddy

Preservation-Bulldog/Regal/Pete Dunne (depends on what view you take)

 

Women's would look like this imo

Foundation-Mildred Burke

Expansion-Fabolous Moolah

Development-Trish Stratus

Preservation-Charlotte Flair

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, Duke said:

I mean, if we're going to worry about problematic individuals on Mount Rushmore, we better get working on the real one.

Absolutely. I just wanted to be clear that listing these guys wasn't an endorsement, is all.

[Cannibal Man]

mystery morphsuit weirdos:

Foundation - Los Conquistadores

Expansion - The Black Scorpion

Development - Mecha Mummy

Preservation - Shun Skywalker 

Edited July 29, 2025 by Cannibal Man

[FLips]

Foundation - Hart
Expansion - NXT UK
Development - OVW
Preservation - Dave Meltzer

[westlondonmist]

 

2 hours ago, theringmaster said:

What a great idea for a thread!

 

UK is really hard, is there a significant 'Foundation'?

Foundation-?

Expansion-Joint promotions (hard to pin point one)

Development-Big Daddy

Preservation-Bulldog/Regal/Pete Dunne (depends on what view you take)

 

Women's would look like this imo

Foundation-Mildred Burke

Expansion-Fabolous Moolah

Development-Trish Stratus

Preservation-Charlotte Flair

I can safely say that anybody who's view is Pete Dunne is wrong. I think Ospreay would be a better shout purely because for a while he was the biggest name on the British scene while still in New Japan and I think helped get RPW and Progress fairly solid attendances. I don't think Bulldog really did anything to preserve the UK scene, he was in it when it was doing okay and part of the US scene during it's fall. Regal you could argue NXT UK, but I felt all that really did was temporarily hinder the UK scene. 

 

For the women's I have no real issue with although for preservation I would put Becky Lynch. I felt she got very organically over and I think her rather than Flair got people to care enough about the WM35 match that they didn't shit on it as the main event. Lynch was one of the most over people in WWE at that time. I think she has definitely had a huge impact on women's wrestling. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

4 hours ago, Carbomb said:

OK, so it's been raised by ArchDuke that there are specific values attached to the faces on the stolen, sacred Native landmark in South Dakota Mount Rushmore, which are:

Washington (Foundation)

Jefferson (Expansion)

Roosevelt (Development)

Lincoln (Preservation)

 

On that basis, who fits that for American wrestling? On initial contemplation, it strikes me thus:

Buddy Rogers (Foundation) - On the basis that he was probably the guy who created the character-driven morality play that is modern pro wrestling, changing it from what it was before. Of course, I am not a historian, so if anyone can point to a wrestler who heralded the shift from the pro sport-presented industry as it was to how it is now, I'll accept the correction.

Vince McMahon (Expansion) - There's no real argument for this, surely? Yes, what he did was good for the WWF/WWE primarily, but wrestling as an industry is now so much bigger than it was in the territory days. Not sure you have wrestling in the mainstream consciousness like it is now, without him.

Hulk Hogan (Development) - Without Hogan, McMahon doesn't expand his business. And Hogan's character and style of working sets the standard for how a lot of mainstream wrestling goes from then on.

Stone Cold Steve Austin (Preservation) - It's primarily because of the Stone Cold-driven Attitude Era that the WWF survives the competition with wCw (like Lincoln, he leads the North to victory against the South), and goes on to be THE wrestling company.

I think this is probably a pretty good list, but part of the reason I said I didn't think it worked as neatly for wrestling is I think only Hogan and Vince are two unquestionables on the US professional wrestling version.

Even Rogers, I'm sure you could make the argument for Sammartino or others who I'm not even thinking of.

And then I think Austin is right, but Rock is snapping at his heels really and you could argue that Rock's celebrity has maybe done more to preserve and grow the business over the long term.

I'd be interested to see people's list for women's wrestling, American independent wrestling and I'd like to see some people's AEW list.

 

Edited July 29, 2025 by d-d-d-dAz

[Cannibal Man]

23 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

American independent wrestling

Been thinking about this one for a moment and all versions include Ian Rotten for IWA MS between it's inception and about 2005. 

 

Edited July 29, 2025 by Cannibal Man

[Chili]

For an American wrestling foundation option your choices are probably Rogers, Lou Thesz, Hackenschmidt (maybe that's too in the past but I think the first ever proper massive pro wrestling live gates in America were his doing) or Gorgeous George as he was the first really stand out once wrestling hit television.

The rest as @Carbomb stated are Vince, Hogan and Austin. Doesn't matter if that wasn't your territory, they're the guys. Rock is close for the last spot somewhat, but the rise of Austin dragged them out of the shit and made it possible they'd probably never ever potentially have to close up shop ever again. 

Edited July 29, 2025 by Chili

[Infinity Land]

Foundation - Lou Thesz. He may not have been first but he was integral to the NWA establishing itself. He was top dog for so long that the WWWF would create their own World Championship. 

Expansion - Vince McMahon Jr. With upcoming cable boom someone was going to take advantage of the changing landscape of regional to national. He was the one that built the machine. Merchandise, tours, focus on more family friendly content, eye on international markets. 

Development - Hulk Hogan. Not too sure on how much of it was mythbuilding/Hogan's bullshit but he saw the value in doing Rocky 3 over his spot in the WWF. Something he would go on to do for the rest of his career. Keeping an eye on any media opportunities to escape the wrestling bubble. Was Vince's engine in the '80s and then for WCW in the '90s. Bit like Thesz aging out while on top leading to significant ripple effects. Hogan doing the same in WCW led to those fleeing to the WWF to reinvent themselves.

Preservation - John Cena. The chosen one for the new look WWE, as the victor starts writing history as the sole survivor of the MNW.  A true corporate champion, the modern template for the face of a publicly traded comapny. Did all the promo appearances, a bunch of WWE Studios films. Still repping WWE long after having success elsewhere. 

 

[boshealecta]

George Hackenschmidt (Foundation) - Spent far too long researching this and looking into wrestling history to decide who and could be a number of people. But it seems like he was one of the first people to be wrestling, maybe not the best technically, but had the look and strength to succeed and became the subject of headlines and trading cards  

Hulk Hogan (Expansion) - I know McMahon was the one who expanded, but like with the  Presidents probably having advisors and people behind them doing the work, they were the figure head and Hogan was the figure head for expansion (plus I want it to just be wrestlers and no promoters). Hogan is the one who turned it into a worldwide brand  

Bret Hart (Development) - I’m not a huge Bret fan but there’s no doubt he carried the ball when Hogan left. He also developed and changed the face of wrestling into less cartoon theatrics and more focus on technical ability. I feel like most wrestlers today have a style based on Bret, wanting to steal the show and be respected for their in ring ability. Bret also transitioned from that to the Attitude Era and seamlessly fitted into both

John Cena (Preservation) Again not the biggest fan but there’s no doubt he has preserved the image and status of WWE for so many years. Making it a family friendly form of entertainment and doing lots of PR and charity/good deeds

 

It still feels odd to not have Austin or the Rock on there as they did so much for the business but they just don’t fit into the categories for me. 

[Carbomb]

Not to slag Cena off, but the reason I wouldn't have him down for that last slot is that by the time his time came around, WWE had established itself as unassailable, and, most importantly, had no serious rival any more. The last time WWE was in any kind of danger, it was Stone Cold who got them out of the shit.

Essentially, if Cena hadn't come along, WWE would've kept ticking over until someone else did. This is not to say he's not one of the top guys, just that pretty much no-one who was at the top following the fall of wCw could be credited with preservation, I'd argue.

[Merzbow]

15 hours ago, Cannibal Man said:

Been thinking about this one for a moment and all versions include Ian Rotten for IWA MS between it's inception and about 2005. 

 

I'd be curious when instead of who people put at the foundation, modern indie wrestling as we know it arguably didn't really take off until King of The Indies 2001 which started a huge shift that coincided with the deaths of WCW and ECW. But yeah, Ian Rotten and the Sweet Science Sixteen in 2000 has a shout as a similar concept, too.

Sooo...

Bryan Danielson (Foundation) Winner of that said event and if there's anyone the indie scene was styled after it's him. He's the archetype.

Gabe Sapolsky (Expansion)  Co-founded Ring of Honor very quickly after that APW show (Rob isn't getting this spot even if he was the main owner at the time) and pretty much fits in with the foundation, too. The indie explosion was rapid around this time but it's Gabe's booking that solidified the style.

Super Dragon (Development) Supes starting up PWG and over the years booking what would grow into something even closer to the modern style, look at how many of the top stars today all came through there.

I'm a little stumped on preservation as there's too much of a blind spot in later years for me, I'd almost want to troll and say Tony Khan but I'm sure someone could actually make a good argument for him somehow. I might come back to this later..

 

[BomberPat]

For indie wrestling, I would be tempted to put Sabu as the Foundation, for being one of the first guys to really create a blueprint for making it is a star name without significant exposure in the big TV companies, and after the collapse of the territory system, riding a combination of word of mouth and magazine coverage, but that might be too early for what we'd recognise as "indie" today; there's a cut-off point after the closure of WCW and ECW, and the advent of affordable recording and production of videos and DVDs, that created a boom that's markedly separate from indie wrestling prior to 2001, for sure.

In terms of preservation, it's a little less clear cut since they've got more in bed with WWE, but you could make an argument for either Brett Lauderdale, Nick Gage or Joey Janela for various aspects of GCW; Janela's Spring Break for really making indie shows part of the appeal of Wrestlemania weekend beyond the kind of WrestleCon super-show model, and for using that platform to showcase a mixture of weird local indie acts from all over the country as well as older faces from indie wrestling's past (I'm thinking of guys like 2 Tuff Tony, Human Tornado, and Nate Webb showing up in the Clusterfuck), Lauderdale for GCW in general, and Nick Gage for being a kind of modern analogue for Sabu, in building up a following and a fanbase outside of the established norms, becoming well known enough to get an AEW TV booking out of it, and, by virtue of his style and his background, being a stand-out independent guy who was never at risk of getting signed up by one of the major promotions at a time when everyone was getting signed.


For British wrestling, I would say:

Foundation - Atholl Oakeley
Expansion - this one's tougher; could go for one of the Crabtrees, or Dale Martin, but I'm going to go slightly outside the box and say "Dr Death" Paul Lincoln.
Development - I'm going to go with Mark Rocco, though I'm then missing out a pretty significant chunk of time, so it might be more fitting to say someone like Doug Williams.
Preservation - Will Ospreay. Perhaps not in terms of in-ring style, but as a British wrestler who came up through the UK independent scene and still maintains very strong ties to it, and found huge success in both Japan and the US, he's hard to argue.