Euthanasia/Assisted Dying

[Keith Houchen]

On 4/29/2024 at 2:29 PM, Keith Houchen said:

Well, look at Canada. Don’t want to be all “Slippery slope” but when it started there, the same kind of provisions that are being debated in parliament today were there at the start. 2 doctors signing it off and the person in question has to be confirmed as having about 6 months left to live etc, but now disabled people are having it suggested to them if they feel like they’re a burden. Same for people with depression. I’m all for body autonomy but stuff like that does feel like a way to get rid of undesirables. 

Circling back to this. There is a documentary on the BBC. Some of the stuff in that story are chilling, like the guy who found it easier to apply for assisted dying than it was to apply for benefits  

EDIT - thanks Chest for sorting this into its own topic!

Edited May 13 by Keith Houchen

[Carbomb]

What's the general consensus on organisations like Dignitas? Surely, if we don't want to risk a slippery slope, we should look at the best systems going and try to emulate them, than try to implement something new and untested. Obviously, that is not to say that we shouldn't also heavily scrutinise even the best systems we can find - where something as final as death is involved, we should be as rigorous, disciplined, and critical as possible.

[Chest Rockwell]

Really important stuff highlighted in the article there about the genuine concerns, because it is easy for the 'anti' voices to be dominated by religious concerns. Don't agree with all of what is said there but very keen to watch the doc.

"Carr said she did not understand why those fighting for legalisation did not put their resources into pushing for improved healthcare and palliative care" - this bit particularly for me suggested that she is working from a position of it never being the best result, or very seldom at least but I can't agree with that, having had first hand experiences with people who had access to all the support they could want but simply not wanting to endure an inevitable and debilitating decline past a certain point.

[Jazzy G]

There's a decent Louis Theroux documentary about it from a few years ago on the iPlayer. 

[Keith Houchen]

7 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

I can't agree with that, having had first hand experiences with people who had access to all the support they could want but simply not wanting to endure an inevitable and debilitating decline past a certain point

Yeah I’m with you on that. If a person knows they’re going to live out their final few months in total agony and with no control over bodily functions etc, and they have the agency to make that decision then respecting their wishes is right. 
 

And I think agency is the key word there. Much like places such as Dignitas like @Carbomb mentions. Bodily autonomy is important and you have to meet criteria to access their services. Where the “Slippery slope” comes in is with state involvement. It goes from what best for the individuals wishes and how they can be facilitated, to what is the most economically viable. 
 

The disabled community see assistance being questioned and taken away, and a rise in resentment towards them. Are they “Really” disabled? You don’t look like you need a blue badge? Why do you get so many handouts etc. 

PIP (which isnt an out of work benefit) isn’t easy to get and it isn’t easy to keep. You’re always having to “Prove” you are in need of it, going through dehumanising assessments and horrible attempts to catch you out (such as not holding doors open for you at assessment centres to see if you can open them and walk unaided for 50 metres to the assessment room, which proves you can walk, or seeing if you sit in the chair without arm rests, which shows you can get in and out of seats unaided) and all these further attacks and micro aggressions add to the mental anguish and see the goal further down the line as being advised to consider assisted death. 
 

Assisted dying, in my opinion, should be for the terminally ill, not the chronically ill and disabled. That’s where the focus should be on assisted living, not assisted dying. My partner is both chronically ill and disabled. She has a lot of support needs and thankfully I’m able to meet a lot of them. However she has said that if I were to die she would begrudgingly consider assisted dying as she wouldn’t be able to live on her own or independently. She sees services being cut, no help for other needs and of course, disability benefits being questioned and chipped away. She, and so many others feels that she would  have no other choice. 
 

One aspect of the documentary I’m interested in is the impact assisted suicide has on the loved ones after the fact. It must be a different kind of grief and I wonder if there is guilt as well? Should be an interesting watch. 

[SuperBacon]

Interestingly I was discussing this with my eldest the other day (cheery eh!)

For me it's about ending someone's pain, not their life, exactly the same as suicide is.

I can't imagine living a life of physical pain every single day and can completely understand why dying would be preferable to that for some.

I also think it's about dignity and allowing someone to die in their way, something that is often take away for the very ill.

But its a really difficult subject and I appreciate others don't agree with the stance I have, as well, it's death. There's no coming back.

[wordsfromlee]

I saw that this woman has been approved to end her life any day now due to her mental health.

 

[Carbomb]

I honestly did not expect to watch something like that. It's genuinely thrown me into a lot of confusion and conflict in terms of what I think on the matter; I firmly advocate people's rights to non-existence if they desire it, but I find that principle quite sorely tested by some surprisingly critical notions that had not occurred to me until now.

[DavidB6937]

It's such a tough subject. I completely get why it's wanted in situations where terminal people want to go out with dignity. Other circumstances? That's a tough call. There are scenarios you would hope will get better for people and that they shouldn't give up as they could be missing out on a more positive life. But at the same time we all have our limits and who are we to decide what that is for others.

[Keith Houchen]

@wordsfromlee thanks for posting that and @Carbomb thanks for watching it! That’s the sort of thing a lot in the disabled community are worried about.  It begins with terminally ill people, and most people can understand that, but it doesn’t stop there. Whilst not knowing their comorbidities, a growing number of autistic people are choosing euthanasia. Here’s a report about people with learning disabilities and autism who have done so. Factors associated with learning disabilities and autism led to requests for euthanasia and assisted suicide in the Netherlands, Kingston University study finds

An AP article on that report (a more condensed version)

I feel it’s becoming a modern day form of eugenics and is complete failure of society to care for the most vulnerable. 

[Mr_Danger]

A lot of disparaging comments on that article/video in the comments section. Seems she’s been misrepresented in some way by Free Press. Not clear how though.

The idea that anyone I love could legally have their life ended at 28 due to mental health is sickening to me. I’d much sooner they put more time, money and effort in to helping the mental health crisis. I can’t get on board with euthanasia in regards to that aspect.

[westlondonmist]

Years ago I was very anti the idea of euthanasia but as I've gotten older, seen people die it outright pain and twigged I'd fucking hate going out like that, I'm actually fine with the idea. It needs to be extremely strict though. I'm not sure I can get behind people with mental health issues. That's a symptom of shit healthcare and a society that ignores mental health. Although that could just be my ignorance of mental health.

 

I've been told it often is actually done in some ways. Nurses give strong doses of morphine which don't kill them instantly but speeds it up after taking this strong dose over a few days. The missus' grandad had that (she believes so anyway) and she was glad. He was in agony, barely alive, couldn't communicate, but he just wouldn't let it go and fuck off. He was always like that to be fair.

 

[I Bent My Wookie]

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Edited May 14 by I Bent My Wookie

[Keith Houchen]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001z8wc
It’s on the iplayer now. I found it really scary but with some wonderful gallows humour. The Canadian doctor scared the absolute shit out of me. I believe Lord Faulkner when he insists the bill would only be for terminally ill people at the end of their lives, but that’s how every single country’s legislation began. 
 

Some great points about how disabled voices and concerns on the issue are routinely ignored and talked over. This cartoon was shown and I thought it was very powerful and poignant 

 

[CharlesTuckerTheThird]

I seem to remember in the early 2010s, when Terry Pratchett mentioned he was in favour of euthanasia being legalised in the UK, The Daily Fail were up in arms and acting like Switzerland were offering 2-for-1 coupons to Dignitas to every person who passed through Zurich airport. The sad fact is, there are a lot of people in the UK who are suffering and will continue to suffer because our lawmakers are too prudish and laissez faire to have a serious discussion on the topic.