US politics

[BomberPat]

I'd argue that the Democrats aren't even a centrist party; they're centre-right at best. There's a massive void to the left of them in American politics.

[The Gaffer]

1 hour ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

The mad thing is, I remember when the thing that would horrify the left and socialists most is dismissing vast swathes of people, the working classes, as stupid rather than trying to understand their situation and work with them. And that's exactly where America is now and where Britain could follow, with the Left turning its back on the working and lower middle classes because they're 'stupid', and relying on big city, educated elites. It's very sad. 

I agree with this. I'm also very cognisant of the fact that very few people want the "But let's try and understand why" line this morning, but it doesn't stop it being of vital importance. 

In many ways this is the exact same as that morning in November 2016. The current American political paradigm has lost all semblance of relational depth. Other countries in the west are headed that way - sure - but in America it really has vanished completely. The people on the other side are your sworn cultural enemies now, and people on both sides have largely just gotten into bed with those battle lines and have settled for it. 

I don't care if it comes off as glib hippieism, I'm convinced the only thing that can repair this is a huge movement towards re-establishing that relational depth. Fucked if I know how you go about starting it, but the fact that it seems insurmountable is no excuse because simply attacking people in the kind of social arenas these battles are happening in is only going to further entrench the current paradigm that's allowing this to happen and a lot of really clever people seem steadfastly reluctant to take their share of personal responsibility for this. It's annoying, isn't it. It's way easier to just jump on these dumb fuckwits. I want to do it too. But - y'know - I'm kind of getting the sense that sending our Comic Book Guy sides to the dinner table isn't going all that great. 

The above is way too mushy and idealist, of course. I just think that should go back to being an impetus, not a barrier. I've also been training in psychotherapeutic settings for awhile now and it's weirdly inspiring how you can probably spend a thousand hours trying to get your counsellor to call something stupid but you're probably going to fail every time. 

Anyway back to unplugging. My dopamine is for me and those I love. 

Totally back for Obama/Trump Once in a Lifetime though! 

 

[d-d-d-dAz]

1 minute ago, BomberPat said:

And I have no time for fretting over what "The Left" should be doing in the context of an American election and the Democrat Party. There is no American "Left".

This I agree with. But mainly because, probably since Clinton, the Democrats have increasingly had to rely on the votes of the wealthy and educated middle and upper classes in densely populated city-states, and have increasingly ceded white working class votes to Republicans.

There is no real Left in America. 

In terms of 'voting against their own interests', the point of politics is to convince people of that. And Democrats have repeatedly failed, as they assume it's self evident to people that they shouldn't vote for Trump or Republicans. But the reality is, if you take out all the noise, people's mortgages are higher, their medical premiums are either up or they've lost coverage and they can't afford the same lifestyle they had five years ago. Is that Bidens fault? No, pretty much entirely not. Do people care? No, not really, the buck always stops with the incumbent if they can't make the arguments they need.

It'll feel to people across America (and it looks like he's won a much bigger electoral college vote than in 2016, plus he's probably won the popular vote) that they've actually voted IN their best interests, even if the man at the top of the ticket is a brash, horrible prick.

If the Democrats are to rebound they can't dismiss these groups as stupid, they need to work out how they can better address the forces that pushed these people towards making a 'stupid' decision and then learn to make that argument in a way that resonates.

[Sphinx]

5 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

In terms of 'voting against their own interests', the point of politics is to convince people of that.

Democrats could become bigger liars, that seems to have worked at convincing people.

[LaGoosh]

13 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

There is no American "Left".

I remember when Cameron was PM he was in the US and did a bunch of media appearances. In one he was asked where his party sat and he replied "my party is centre-right but would probably be considered to be left wing in the US". I think that sums it up. 

The right wing in the US bang on constantly about the left and "liberals" but no real left wing exists there. Unfettered Capitalism is too embedded in every aspect of American society for the left to actually exist in any real way.

[SuperBacon]

Language also plays a massive part. I think people underestimate just how significant the Cold War was there and the fear of "communism" still looms large.

The US is a mad place, and unlike anywhere else on earth, so comparisons with what's happening elsewhere is largely irrelevant in my opinion. 

[organizedkaos]

 

7 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

What about all the landlords, business owners, and millionaires who vote Trump?

sure there's plenty people who voted for their economic self interest.  It does just seem there's just clearly plenty people who have seen their grocery bills go up and no amount of "actually the economy has improved" is convincing vs "I will improve your lives by ensuring you don't have to share as much of your stuff". Telling these people they're dumb and/or racist doesn't seem to be achieving mich

Or maybe exactly half of the country who are millionaires and landlords and that's who voted for trump

Obviously there's many reasons and threads and likely all are true... Yes the press focus too much on white working class. Also Trump made notable gains in non white voters in multiple states. So the undiscussed also seem to have some positive opinions

 

[organizedkaos]

2 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

Language also plays a massive part. I think people underestimate just how significant the Cold War was there and the fear of "communism" still looms large.

The US is a mad place, and unlike anywhere else on earth, so comparisons with what's happening elsewhere is largely irrelevant in my opinion. 

I mean look how well received Corbyn was here ?

(sorry not trying to be overly glib, you are right it's viewed with more hostility in the US. I just do fear we could easily see a snap back to further right too and for similar reasons which is where this aversion to othering US/right wing trends is coming from)

[FLips]

It will be interesting to see what fuels the voters in the next election because you could assume that for better or worse (very likely worse) Trump will take action on topics that split a lot of voters. He'll likely side with Isreal on the Palestine conflict and Russia on the Ukraine conflict and these are both the larger sides most likely to "win" with American influence. He takes a stronger stance on immigration, guns, and abortion. You also assume he's going to take major actions when it comes to things like gender identity.

When 4 years are up you have to wonder what the big voting topics will be if these things have been "resolved" as far as the Republican party is concerned.

You also have to think as well, when his time is up there isn't anyone with such a cult of personality to replace him. I can't see his successor doing well unless he does get some sort of results during his term.

[LaGoosh]

1 minute ago, FLips said:

You also have to think as well, when his time is up there isn't anyone with such a cult of personality to replace him.

This is an interesting point. Trump has dominated the Republic Party to the point that he basically is the Party. Without him they have nothing.

[d-d-d-dAz]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DCBjADQJ2bT/?igsh=MTJiOXJkc2JhcWxxcw==

I will pretty much never put myself through listening to Alastair Campbell or Rory Stewart, but I do like Dominic Sandbrook and agree with this completely.

It's very strange that Harris hasn't conceded yet. That's just going to add more fuel to the 'they're all the same' fire.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

People keep talking about a further 4 years and I know that actually repealling the 22nd amendment through the usual process is very difficult but when you have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme Court like Trump does surely he just makes a case to the Supreme Court that term limits are unconstitutional, they strike them down and he runs for President until he dies. Mind you he has been telling his supporters in his speeches that if they vote for him this time they will never have to worry about voting again, so perhaps there won't be any more elections. Mind you in 4 years time we might have other things to worry about like the Russian invasion. I hope you fit lads know how to fire a gun. I'm pleased I live next to an airbase, we are bound to get done in by some poorly aimed bombs which will be a blessing. 

[LaGoosh]

4 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

Mind you in 4 years time we might have other things to worry about like the Russian invasion.

The what now?

[Gus Mears]

8 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

The what now?

Ukraine falls, Putin is emboldened, NATO no longer has American support. The sort of thing which sounds absurd until it isn't any more.

[BomberPat]

While I don't think there's any risk of invasion - I think Putin's ambitions are very Russo-centric rather than expansionist beyond the historical borders of the pre-USSR Russia - I am concerned for the future with a Trump-emboldened Russia and Israel on the warpath, and North Korean troops fighting in Ukraine. There's a real shitstorm of factors going on, and we're too close to it all to know how significant the confluence of them all will be.