Just seen someone say Hulk Hogan "sucked at wrestling"

[CavemanLynn]

Every fan who "smartens up" hits their Hogan-was-shit phase at some point. For me, it was discovering RVD vs Jerry Lynn, probably off an ECW Heat Wave tape from MVC. For years afterwards, THAT was proper wrestling, none of that boring punch-kick-finisher rubbish. Then at some point, you realise that, regardless of the style, the key to wrestling is making the crowd CARE, and Hogan could do that 1000% with just punch-kick-finisher. I'd even argue that prime Hogan was a rare case of a face being able to make any heel, the inverse of what the NWA built itself on (and maybe why Flair vs Hogan was never that good, regardless of any political shenanigans). Personally, I think a guy like Steamboat combined that pure face sympathy and fire with athleticism better than Hogan, but Hogan's charisma and force of personality still make him untouchable.

[Mr_Danger]

There’s such a weird moment in Hogan’s recent appearance on Theo Von’s podcast where Hogan is concocting this story about how his wayward brother was shot dead then catches himself in the lie and says it was actually from an overdose but he didn’t want to say it like that and carries on talking without skipping a beat. Such a mad bastard.

[Merzbow]

In the past he'd just run with the lie, I like to think he saw that big arse thread on Twitter about all his lies and now he's second guessing himself.

[SuperBacon]

That thread was hilarious.

Hulk obviously learned from the king.

[BomberPat]

Hogan isn't to my taste as a wrestler, and I missed him first time around so don't have the childhood nostalgia for him, but it's impossible to deny that he was incredible at the very specific thing that he did. And that if what he did were as limited and as easy as people make it out to be, everybody else would have done it. And there's the rub, really - if there were one surefire way to make millions from wrestling, everybody would be working that way.

It was a truism in internet wrestling spaces that Hogan was "actually good in Japan", because he did more moves, and because he had a good match with Great Muta in 1993 (who didn't?). The reality is that Hogan was good because he knew that he didn't need to do anything more than what he did, and doing more moves in Japan only highlighted how streamlined his act was elsewhere.

22 hours ago, CavemanLynn said:

the inverse of what the NWA built itself on (and maybe why Flair vs Hogan was never that good, regardless of any political shenanigans). 

I think the reason Flair/Hogan rarely worked is that they're both formula wrestlers - they both work their own match and slot the opponent into them, which is completely understandable when you look at the schedules they both had to keep up (400 days a year, brother). When they came together, they were too completely incompatible formulas, though - Flair's match relies around bumping and feeding and selling for the face, Hogan's involves selling for the heel until it's time for the comeback, and it's only really during that comeback that the two can mesh. Particularly in the WWF, where top stars weren't really expected to show vulnerability, and heels were generally dominant, to have someone like Flair begging off and selling like a maniac to put faces over made him look weak and not at all like a threat to Hogan.

 

You could nitpick and pull apart Hogan's technical ability, but that's never been what draws money. You could talk about how he's just pieced together bits and pieces of other people's acts - Billy Graham's look with some of Dusty's promos and Jay Strongbow's comeback - but again that's to miss the point; it's like the old adage of modern art, you can say "well, anyone could have done that", but the fact remains that Hogan did and everyone else didn't.

The flipside of "Hogan wasn't good", though, is the insistence that because what Hogan did worked for Hogan, it would work for anyone else, and that wrestlers need to be big musclebound lunatics to draw money. People usually make the counterargument of pointing to smaller guys that made it big, but for me the more telling point is how many massive bodybuilders and freakish physiques have come through top flight wrestling without every drawing any money. The thing to realise about Hogan is that he was absolutely in the right place at the right time, not just for the WWF's national expansion and the success of the first Wrestlemania, but generally in the early 1980s in a "bigger is better" boom that was tailor-made for someone with the Hogan size and build - he was a megastar because he fit the zeitgeist alongside He-Man, Mr. T, hair metal and Arnold Schwarzenegger; and I think there's a clunky argument to be made for Hogan's heel turn being analogous to Arnie's turn towards doing comedy and self-parody in the '90s; the one-note muscular hero has a shelf-life. 

[Mr_Danger]

Yeah, the comment of “Why break your back when you can get over by raising your eyebrow/putting your hand to your ear/flipping the opponent off misses the point that those things only got over because of who was doing it. Very few people alive have that kind of charisma. Imagine Chris Benoit working the exact same style and routine of a Hogan or Rock.

[Your Fight Site]

The debate comes from the loose definition of what “wrestling” and a “wrestler” is.

If we’re talking about technical ability then no, I don’t rate Hogan. This weird “he was great in Japan” reputation because he busted out an enziguiri or drop toe hold is rubbish when you can say Kane did the same moves, and in the States, yet no one points to Kane as being a “great” wrestler.

But if we’re talking about “wrestling” as the act of showmanship and using your body and actions to tell a story and elicit emotions and response from a crowd then yeah, Hogan was absolutely fantastic.

[SuperBacon]

The timing as well is a major factor.

Hulk came at a time of Reaganomics, displays of power and wealth and might, and having gone through the 60s, 70s, Vietnam etc, here was a literal symbol of US power against the Cold War, communism, and the like.

It was a massive visualisation of the country at the time, and someone everyone could get behind.

The USA has always been one of the most feverishly patriotic countries and now there was a big tanned beast BROTHER BROTHER BROTHERING all over the gaff waving the flag. It couldn't have been more perfect timing.

[Loki]

21 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I think the reason Flair/Hogan rarely worked is that they're both formula wrestlers

Funnily enough, I was watching the Flair 30-30 documentary last night and Hogan talked about this.  He said that he had a match that he could do, actually 6 different matches he could do and he'd pick one with his opponent.  But he watched Flair and saw him work differently with every opponent.

Hogan was super generous about Flair, said he was 10 times the wrestler Hogan was and talked about how he (Hogan) had never had to wrestle for an hour and couldn't have done it.

You're absolutely right that two great sellers don't tend to have a good match together, and that was the issue with Flair v Hogan.  

You also mention his heel turn - has ANYONE done as good a turn as that in wrestling?  Hollywood Hogan was a completely different character to Red&Yellow.  To reinvent yourself like that for a new generation is amazing.  Face Flair and heel Flair were actually pretty similar - face and heel Austin too.  Most people change whether they "care" about the fans or not.  But Hollywood was just the opposite of everything the Hulkster stood for.

[BomberPat]

17 minutes ago, Loki said:

 Hollywood was just the opposite of everything the Hulkster stood for.

It ties into the cultural zeitgeist thing again - the late '90s didn't really want big and colourful flag-waving patriotism any more, they wanted reasons to be cynical and edgy. Taking a guy who was starting to feel like a holdover from a previous age - and in a promotion where he never quite fit right in the first place - and basically saying, "it was all an act, he was really always this under the surface" was just perfect for that time and place. 

The only downside for me - and your mileage may vary on this one - is that I think Hogan marked the end of the nWo seeming genuinely cool and dangerous. I know Kevin Nash has talked about it before, but even with a new "attitude" and the heel turn, Hogan is still there just shaky shouty "brother dude jack" promos while Hall and Nash are more detached and cool, and it wasn't a great fit. For as great as the initial turn was, and for all the novelty and shock value of Hulk Hogan working heel, it didn't take long for the nWo to stop feeling like a dangerous invading force from another company and become just as much of a "that doesn't work for me, dude" Hogan & Friends project as the Dungeon Of Doom, just with a more fashionable coat of paint.

[LaGoosh]

I remember reading something about Arnold Schwarzenegger's rise as an action star and someone described him as a "living, breathing special effect". I felt like that was a spot on description that also fits prime Hulk Hogan. 

[5pints 2.0]

1 hour ago, Merzbow said:

In the past he'd just run with the lie, I like to think he saw that big arse thread on Twitter about all his lies and now he's second guessing himself.

Is there a link to this?

[Merzbow]

12 minutes ago, 5pints 2.0 said:

Is there a link to this?

 

 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

For as great as the initial turn was, and for all the novelty and shock value of Hulk Hogan working heel, it didn't take long for the nWo to stop feeling like a dangerous invading force from another company

I don't think anyone but Hogan (except for possibly Flair) could have conceivably filled the role of a star with so much stroke that the nWo would be tolerated/accommodated and allowed to get away with as much as they did, in comparison to other factions who could ultimately be reigned in. Hogan was larger than life and bigger than WCW, so the thought of him - and therefore by extension, his gang - being afforded the slack to humiliate and even take over the company while pen-pushers gnashed their fingernails at the thought of losing him from their show wasn't too far-fetched (in part because smart fans knew it was basically true).

[SuperBacon]

17 minutes ago, Uncle Zeb said:

gnashed their fingernails

Love this malapropism. Very Little Carmine.